想 and 要

[Kong Junrui]

你们好！

I've been wondering for some time now, how are 想 and 要 different? As in, in which contexts should you use one as opposed to another?

As far as I know, 想 means "to think," like "我想你太胖了" (though that's kinda rude ), but it also means "to want," like "我想吃中饭。"

This is what confuses me: 要 also means "to want," doesn't it? Maybe it means "to want to," as in a future desire, but I'm not sure.

Any comments?

[Ferno]

yes, 想 also means kind of like "would like"

要 yao4 can mean "want" as well like you said

要 is used as a future-tense indicator as well "我要去北京" I am going to go to Beijing. Personally I think there should be a seperate word, but that's just how it is. Future/past/present aren't as much of a big deal in Chinese, mostly it's through context after the tense has been established.

The "want" meaning can also mean "to order something" 我想要一杯啤酒 "I would like to order a glass of beer"

[Mike]

I am confused by the same thing Kong Junrui. CEDICT gives: -

想

xiang3 (to think/to believe/to suppose/to wish/to want)

要

yào (important/vital/to want/to be going to/must)

It is that想, with the 心 (xīn) heart/mind character is more about ‘thinking’ and 要 more about ‘need’.

So if I say 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) Would you like to drink something?

Will the person I am speaking to realises that I am not thinking that they need a drink (perhaps because it is hot or they are thirsty) but simply that they might like a drink?

Also is this why要(yào) is about the future? It’s not something that you are thinking about, not just something in your head, but about what you are going to do, plan to do in the future: perhaps you have already booked a ticket or made a note in your diary.

===================

Reading this last paragraph again I realise my attempt at an argument is a bit confusing but I can sense the difference I just can't explain it, and I am probably wrong anyway :-)

[lokki]

Though I am a total beginner and not qualified to say anything about this really, I just saw it mentioned in:

"Basic Chinese, a Grammar and Workbook"

by Yip Ping-Ching and Don Rimmington

(incidentally a book I have seen recommended at more places than one):

page 2 (at the bottom):

... while 想xiǎng emphasizes 'plan' or 'inclination', 要yào indicates 'wish' or 'will'. They may generally be used interchangably.

Cheers Lokki

[Quest]

想 and 要 are abbreviations for 想要 meaning "to want".

[Ferno]

I am confused by the same thing Kong Junrui. CEDICT gives: -

想

xiang3 (to think/to believe/to suppose/to wish/to want)

要

yào (important/vital/to want/to be going to/must)

It is that想' date=' with the 心 (xīn) heart/mind character is more about ‘thinking’ and 要 more about ‘need’.

So if I say 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) Would you like to drink something?

Will the person I am speaking to realises that I am not thinking that they need a drink (perhaps because it is hot or they are thirsty) but simply that they might like a drink?

[/quote']

There are more words to use. 需要 "xu1 yao4" is a two-syllable word that means "need" - as you see, 要 contributes to the meaning.

Also is this why要(yào) is about the future? It’s not something that you are thinking about' date=' not just something in your head, but about what you are going to do, plan to do in the future: perhaps you have already booked a ticket or made a note in your diary.

[/quote']

That's just how it is, Chinese likes to recycle characters (and recycle syllables even more) and relies more on context to seperate the meanings, most east asian languages are like that.

Notice how in English, French, etc.. we use the verb "to have" for past tense. "I have gone" - not as confusing as using "want" for "will", but still...

I don't know anything about Chinese, but i'm sure there are ways to differentiate between "intent" and the "future tense"

*note again on the context-for-tense thing - you can just throw in a time-word like ming2tian1 and it automatically changes tense. 我明天去北京 - put that in Babel Fish and you get "I will go to Beijing tomorrow" You don't even need yao4.

[Quest]

Notice how in English' date=' French, etc.. we use the verb "to have" for past tense. "I have gone" - not as confusing as using "want" for "will", but still...

I don't know anything about Chinese, but i'm sure there are ways to differentiate between "intent" and the "future tense"[/quote']

ferno, we also use the verb "to have" 有 for past tense. 你有没有离开过(You have or not have leave[ed]/left)？我有。

The English "will" is really similar, a will is an intent, and it's used for the future tense.

I have "a will" to do laundry tomorrow, so I "will" do the laundry tomorrow.

They are very similar approaches, just written differently.

[Ferno]

hmm, 没有 is a bit different - you can only use it when coupled with 没有 like in your "have nothave" question-form. But I see your point.

"will" cannot also be used as a direct verb like "want". You cannot say "I will" instead of "I want", "I will" will be immediately understood by an English speaker a future-tense indicator before even the rest of the sentance is heard.

[Altair]

I think that the basic meaning of 想 is indeed to think.

So if I say 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) Would you like to drink something?

Will the person I am speaking to realises that I am not thinking that they need a drink (perhaps because it is hot or they are thirsty) but simply that they might like a drink?

I think this is somewhat analogous to "I think I'll drink something." The "wanting" is still a little tentative. If you say 你要喝什么, this implies that the "wanting" is definitive. It is closer to "What have you decided to drink?"

As for how to express the "future tense" in Chinese, I think text books fail to be make clear that the "future tense" in English is not what it appears to be. There are many sentences in English that express the future, but which have no future tense markers. (E.g., I am getting my haircut tomorrow.) Similarly, many sentences that have "will" in them do not refer to the future tense. (E.g., "Will you stop making so much noise, I can't hear?")

In Chinese, the future can be expressed by nothing (他明天来 ta1 ming2tian lai2), by using 会 (他会来的 ta1 hui4 lai2 de), or by using 要. What can be confusing is to determine when 要 means "want" and when it means "will." The link is to realize that what goes before 要 is not necessarily its subject. If it is "circumstances" that require (or "will have") the outcome, then what comes before 要 is merely the topic and 要 is closer to "will" in meaning than "want."

[Quest]

hmm, 没有 is a bit different - you can only use it when coupled with 没有 like in your "have nothave" question-form. But I see your point.

No it can be used without 没有, 没有 is just the Chinese way to ask a question. 我有吃过鱼翅. 我有做过错事。So, just like English, you use 有 have before and the past tense particle 过 after the verb。

"will" cannot also be used as a direct verb like "want". You cannot say "I will" instead of "I want", "I will" will be immediately understood by an English speaker a future-tense indicator before even the rest of the sentance is heard.

Well languages are like that, pros here and cons there. No two are exactly the same, but they all work pretty well.

[lokki]

"will" cannot also be used as a direct verb like "want". You cannot say "I will" instead of "I want", "I will" will be immediately understood by an English speaker a future-tense indicator before even the rest of the sentance is heard.

"Will" certainly can be used as a verb on its own in English, though the use as an auxiliary verb is more common. "The rider willed his horse to go faster", "If you will" etc. check the third meaning of "will [3,verb]" at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary and googling for "they willed" turns up quite a few examples, many of them biblical. But for the purpose of comparing the origins of usage like what is being done in this thread it is only right and proper to go back to the roots of things, including ancient, even obsolete language.

Cheers, Lokki

[lokki]

So if I say 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) Would you like to drink something?

Excuse me, but I thought 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) translated as "What would you like to drink ?

Are both interpretations possible ?

[Ferno]

"Will" certainly can be used as a verb on its own in English, though the use as an auxiliary verb is more common. "The rider willed his horse to go faster", "If you will" etc. check the third meaning of "will [3,verb]" at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary[/url'] and googling for "they willed" turns up quite a few examples, many of them biblical. But for the purpose of comparing the origins of usage like what is being done in this thread it is only right and proper to go back to the roots of things, including ancient, even obsolete language.

I said "will", not "willed" or "wills", etc... the inflected nature of English prevents the future-indicating meaning and the intention meaning from being confused. The only viable example there was your "If you will" - which would also be assumed to mean the future-indicating meaning, unless you say it in an "encouraging" tone of voice, ie "go ahead". Did you mean "If you will it"?

[Ferno]

Excuse me' date=' but I thought 你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?) translated as "What would you like to drink ?

Are both interpretations possible ?[/quote']

I'm wondering this as well... "you would like to drink what?" isn't the same as asking if the person would like to drink anything at all.. wouldn't that be something like "ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2me dong1xi ma?"

[geraldc]

Shenme can mean anything, as in I won't drink anything. 我什么都不喝。

[lokki]

I said "will", not "willed" or "wills", etc...

That is just the same verb "will" occurring in different forms, as it adapts to grammatical context. But by all means, for an example of "will" in exactly that form: "Don´t try to will your horse to go faster, learn how to ride it better instead."

Actually the main reason to go for those forms was because it is easier to google for examples that way. Just googling for "will" would turn up a majority of future-tense "will".

the inflected nature of English prevents the future-indicating meaning and the intention meaning from being confused.

True, it is usually clear in English, which meaning of "will" is intended, either through inflection or, as in my example above ("will your horse"), by it being used transitively.

I don't know enough Mandarin (yet :o) to know whether the two are easier to confuse there, but I would expect Mandarin to have its own mechanisms of disambiguation in place. It would be rather surprising if it didn't, for frequent everyday expressions like this.

But despite differences in the details, I think the comparison is valid - of a verb related to the concept of "will" or "desire" being used for future tense in both languages.

As a sidenote, auxiliary "will" also has other uses than future tense, again, check http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary.

The only viable example there was your "If you will" - which would also be assumed to mean the future-indicating meaning, unless you say it in an "encouraging" tone of voice, ie "go ahead".

All of them were examples of the verb "will" being used on its own. Not sure what criterion you apply for "viable".

"If you will" is such an established idiomatic expression that I can´t see it being easily confused as a future tense there, though I suppose that interpretation is theoretically possible. Same thing for usage along the lines of "call it what you will".

Did you mean "If you will it"?

No.

[lokki]

Shenme can mean anything, as in I won't drink anything. 我什么都不喝。

True, and I was familiar with that example. There it is used in a negative sentence.

But can it also mean "anything" in a positive/affirmative sentence ?

[skylee]

For me -

"What would you like to drink?" is 你想喝甚麽?

"Would you like to drink something?" is 你想喝點甚麽嗎? or 你想喝點東西嗎?

[semantic nuance]

Yes, lokki. you can use 我什麼都喝.

A: 你想要喝什麼? What would you like to drink.

B: 我什麼都可以喝. Anything is ok.

Hope it helps!

[lokki]

Yes, lokki. you can use 我什麼都喝.

Hope it helps!

It certainly does. 谢谢你

But I am still not totally sure if that is so also in the original sentence that sparked off this discussion:

你想喝什么？ (ni3 xiang3 he1 shen2 me?)

.... a) What would you like to drink ?

.... B) Would you like to drink anything ?

Are both translations correct ?