Wubixizing input on English XP?

[malinuo]

I personally doubt any claims that pinyin could ever be as quick as 五笔 for a skilled writer. With 五笔 there are hardly any ambiguities and that alone saves time. Still pinyin is fast enough for many of us.

However, the biggest advantage with 五笔 is for looking up in electronic dictionaries. It is by far the quickest way I know of to find a character from its shape alone. When you see a new character, you won't know the pinyin to type, but with 五笔 you have a very good chance of finding it instantly.

[peterwelm]

It is a clear fact that people think in his own native language,especially in voice of his mother tongue ,not the shape or figure of characters in his head.So I said pinyin is the natural way to write down words for chinese.Some pinyin input method which has memorization of users' input history can ease one's typing,because input method allow you only input the sheng1 mu3 of hanzi to input two or more words of a phrases,(we know that there is only 1 or 2 characters in a sheng1 mu3 of chinese)and the input method will prompt you with several choices, then you can select the correct one.if there is no one suitable,the input method can auto generate a compound words 组词(zu3 ci2) for you,then you won't need to re-type all pinyins of a words/phrases for the next time. Some pinyin input method may have hundreds mega-bytes pinyin-hanzi database 词库(ci2 ku4),it's very convenient for people to type a whole sentence with this database.

if you also knew 简拼(Jian3 Pin1) method,which can help you input one hanzi with no more than 2 key presses,and with the memorization function,you can easily and quickly input chinese with no less than 90 hanzi(s) in a minute. Comparatively, Wubi input method need 2-4 key presses for each hanzi,and usually there is no memorization function with wubi input method,That is the reason why pinyin input method is easily and quickly for typing chinese.

However,native chinese wouldn't think what the parts of a hanzi are when they are writing,because their writing procedure is automatic,there is no need to know what the parts of a hanzi are.Maybe pinyin input method is only convenient for native chinese,foreigners who haven't such ability maybe need more writing practce to be familiar with chinese characters. if you don't want to be bothered by the splitting procedure when you input hanzi in wubi input method,assuming that you are fluently in oral chinese and know pinyin,pinyin input method is a good choice.

if you found any syntax error in my words,please feel free to point it out.

[malinuo]

I didn't know of 简拼. Very interesting!

However, it simply makes pinyin input more efficient, if I understand one of the few web references I found. It is a variant of 双拼, right?

"Shuang Pinyin (双拼 shuangpin)

Shuang Pinyin kan men omschrijven als twee letter Pinyin. Om het aantal toetsaanslagen te verminderen werd de invoer van verschillende karakters vervangen door één enkele of twee letters.

中国 (zhongguo, China): V(zh) + Y (ong) + G(g) + 5(uo) "

from: http://seba.studentenweb.org/thesis/thesis/thesis.pdf

But you still cannot input a new character you don't know the pronunciation of.

When it comes to shortcuts in 五笔, there are plenty of them. The 20 or so most common characters can all be typed with just one keystroke (plus space), and two and three character combinations also often have shortcuts.

(Does anyone have a web reference to a list of shortcuts? I have a printed book, but last time I sought, I didn't find any good html list.)

[peterwelm]

I didn't know of 简拼. Very interesting!

However, it simply makes pinyin input more efficient, if I understand one of the few web references I found. It is a variant of 双拼, right?

Yes, it's 双拼,not 简拼,it's my fault。

But you still cannot input a new character you don't know the pronunciation of.

Yes,if it's a bran-new chinese character to me,I will have to seek it in dictionary to learn its pinyin and meaning. if I knew its pinyin,but it is the first time I input it,I would type a phrase which include the character and select it from the phrase(we call this method as 以词定字 yi3 ci2 ding4 zi4).

中国 (zhongguo, China): V(zh) + Y (ong) + G(g) + 5(uo) "

These chinese characters can also be input as zh+g/zh+guo/zhong+g/zhong+guo(in 全拼quan2 pin1),It's more specific from left to right.

for example: If I want to type 中国的经济正在腾飞,and I know that I had typed phrases 中国、经济、正在、腾飞before，then I will input following english characters queue(in 全拼,using plus sign as delimiter)

zh+guo+de+j+j+zheng+z+t+f

At last,once you knew that you had typed this sentence before,then you need only type zh+g+d+j+j+zh+z+t+f

,the input method program will translate them all into 中国的经济正在腾飞 at once.

When it comes to shortcuts in 五笔, there are plenty of them. The 20 or so most common characters can all be typed with just one keystroke (plus space), and two and three character combinations also often have shortcuts.

It's unfortunately that most wubi input method doesn't implemented memorization function(input history is not just been cached,those auto-generated compound words will be put into a database in filesystem which is pesistent.)

(Does anyone have a web reference to a list of shortcuts? I have a printed book, but last time I sought, I didn't find any good html list.)

http://www.mm123.com/srzs33.htm,but dIfferent 全拼 input method maybe have different key mapping.

[imron]

Out of curiosity, how many keystrokes does it take to enter something like 中华人民共和国 using your pinyin input method? With 五笔 it's only 4 keys: kwwl

But back to your example, using the 五笔 installed on this computer, 中国的经济正在腾飞 is khlgr xciyghd d eunu

20 keystrokes, vs your 'best-case' version: zh+g+d+j+j+zh+z+t+f which is 28 keystrokes when taking into account the shift-key which is needed to type +, and also the space/enter needed to be typed to signify the end of the input (something only necessary in wubi for characters using less than 4 keystrokes).

Even if you take + as one stroke (or use a different delimit key), it's still 20 keystrokes (because of the space/enter to end the input). So your best case scenario is equal to the normal case for 五笔. If you haven't typed the phrase before, then it's even worse. Also, newer versions of 五笔 (i.e one that has a 4 keystroke combo for 正在), only require: khlgr xciyghdheunu - 18 keystrokes.

In any event, the point you made about being able to type faster when thinking in the sounds of your native language, is negated when using your current method because here you also need to break the sounds up. In addition you also need to know whether or not you've typed a particular phrase before, otherwise you need to type the longer version - something that's not necessary in 五笔.

Finally, many modern 五笔 input methods do have memory of typed phrases, see for example 智能五笔

[imron]

When it comes to shortcuts in 五笔, there are plenty of them. The 20 or so most common characters can all be typed with just one keystroke (plus space), and two and three character combinations also often have shortcuts.

(Does anyone have a web reference to a list of shortcuts? I have a printed book, but last time I sought, I didn't find any good html list.)

Any decent software for learning Wubi (see my previous posts for links) will have a section for learning the shortcuts for 2, 3, 4, 4+ character combinations. And, IMO, it's far better to practise them like this, rather than trying to memorise them from a reference

[peterwelm]

Out of curiosity, how many keystrokes does it take to enter something like 中华人民共和国 using your pinyin input method? With 五笔 it's only 4 keys: kwwl

非常凑巧的是，it's only 2 keys to input 中华人民共和国 with the input method which I'm using.

But back to your example, using the 五笔 installed on this computer, 中国的经济正在腾飞 is khlgr xciyghd d eunu 20 keystrokes, vs your 'best-case' version: zh+g+d+j+j+zh+z+t+f which is 28 keystrokes when taking into account the shift-key which is needed to type +, and also the space/enter needed to be typed to signify the end of the input (something only necessary in wubi for characters using less than 4 keystrokes).

The "+" signs shouldn't be counted in,they are auto-generated by the input method.So there is only 11 keys to input 中国的经济正在腾飞。

Even if you take + as one stroke (or use a different delimit key), it's still 20 keystrokes (because of the space/enter to end the input). So your best case scenario is equal to the normal case for 五笔. If you haven't typed the phrase before, then it's even worse. Also, newer versions of 五笔 (i.e one that has a 4 keystroke combo for 正在), only require: khlgr xciyghdheunu - 18 keystrokes.

In any event, the point you made about being able to type faster when thinking in the sounds of your native language, is negated when using your current method because here you also need to break the sounds up. In addition you also need to know whether or not you've typed a particular phrase before, otherwise you need to type the longer version - something that's not necessary in 五笔.

在前面的帖子我曾说过，有的拼音输入法有非常大的词库（several hundreds MBytes），这些词库都是大规模语料统计的结果，利用这种词库可以非常方便、快速的一次把一个句子输入，这些词库可以说基本上覆盖了所有可能出现的词语。

Finally, many modern 五笔 input methods do have memory of typed phrases, see for example 智能五笔

可能是吧，我没有用过智能五笔。

不过，一个输入法最重要的一点就是既应当容易让大多数人接受，同时也拥有非常好的性能。五笔输入法对于自己不熟悉的内容的输入会有一定的优势，但是需要额外记很多键位，这就是为什么很多人没有使用它的缘故。对于拼音输入法来说，现代生活中常用的字多半都是gb2312中的6000多个字，有大规模语料库的支持，所以性能根本就不是问题。这也是为什么现在商业化的输入法都转向了拼音输入的主要原因。真正最快的算是语音输入了，但语音输入却是以拼音输入的语料库为基础的。另外，请参考

http://popbbs.yesky.com/topic/108/913933.html

http://photo.yesky.com/8j/oa/KP/KP.HTM

这里有关于哪种输入法最快的争论，而且这后一篇文章的内容比较滑稽，但确实说明了一些事实。

说到这里，我想我们可以停止这个争论了。正所谓是“萝卜青菜，各有所爱"，我们各取所需就是了。

[adrianlondon]

It doesn't matter too much if you save, say, 8 keystrokes if it takes you 10 seconds to remember what they are The system has to be intuitive, too.

[imron]

peterwelm> Ok, my mistake. I guess I misunderstood how this particular pinyin method works.

说到这里，我想我们可以停止这个争论了。正所谓是“萝卜青菜，各有所爱"，我们各取所需就是了。

I agree. In any case the major reason I like 五笔 is because it forces me to think in characters - which is exactly the reason you don't like it. Whatever happens I don't think we'll be able to change each others mind.

To tie this all back to the original poster though, I do think that for foreigners learning Chinese, using wubi is ultimately more beneficial than using pinyin precisely because it makes you think in characters, and makes you use active recall rather than passive recall.

[peterwelm]

agree. In any case the major reason I like 五笔 is because it forces me to think in characters - which is exactly the reason you don't like it. Whatever happens I don't think we'll be able to change each others mind.

To tie this all back to the original poster though, I do think that for foreigners learning Chinese, using wubi is ultimately more beneficial than using pinyin precisely because it makes you think in characters, and makes you use active recall rather than passive recall.

Yes,you are right,五笔输入法can help foreigners(even chiense) who are NOT familiar with chinese characters learn unfamiliar chinese characters.

[Altair]

I have recently decided to experiment with Wubizixing based on the information on this and other threads. Thank you Imron for all the information you posted.

I have installed the Sougou IME and would also like to install 五笔快打; however, when I click through what seem like the logical options, I end up at this page and cannot figure out where to click to get the download. Unfortunately, I think neither my Chinese nor my computer skills are up to the task, especially with all the flashing boxes.

I would prefer to download a trial version, but would be willing to pay immediately if there is a relatively secure way to pay from the U.S., like using PayPal.

Does anyone have advice as to what I can do?

[imron]

This link should get your download started, or you can choose from one of the other download links on this page. The download links are all on the left. Every version you download is the trial version. When you pay, you'll get an activation code that will turn it into a full version. Unfortunately they don't seem to accept Paypal, only bank transfer, or by some online Chinese payment site. Perhaps you could try emailing them, or try to find someone in China able to make the transaction for you?

Also, personally I would use 极点五笔 over the Sogou Wubi IME.

[Altair]

Thanks, imron. These links work.

As for using 极点五笔, I wasn't sure how reliable it was and also wanted to make sure I could use Pinyin input to find the Wubi codes. My ability to remember characters actively has deteriorated so far, that speed is not an issue for me.

[imron]

极点五笔 also supports mixed pinyin/wubi mode, and tends to have a far more extensive dictionary for common word terms/combinations. I haven't used the Sogou one for a while, but it was seriously lacking when I last tried it.

[Altair]

I downloaded 五笔快打 and have been playing with it; however, most of the download instructions and the instructions in the software itself display gibberish and random symbols. I have had to guess what to do.

I run an English language Windows Vista and don't know if I made a wrong guess in the download or if the program presumes I am running things in Chinese. Is there a setting I can change that might cure things? I hunted around the Language options, but did not see anything promising. I guess I could change the System Locale, but am afraid of what that would do to all the other software I have, especially for other users in the house.

Any suggestions?

[imron]

Yes, the gibberish problem is related to the System Locale which needs to be Chinese (PRC). Unfortunately AppLocale doesn't play nicely with the copy protection used by the software so if you don't change the System Locale, you can't use it. As for what effect it will have on other users of the computer, changing the System Locale will really only have an effect for non-Unicode applications, so the question then becomes what other non-Unicode programs are in use on the computer and for what language? You could consider using AppLocale for those programs instead.