A few beginner's general questions

[durtal]

Hi all, I've just joined. I've started learning Mandarin on my own recently, and I just have a few general curiosity questions.

(Sorry if these questions have been asked many times before, that always happens on these online forums, and in teachers' classrooms as well each year I guess.)

After having learned ancient Greek, I really like how Mandarin doesn't need to have separate verb forms for different tenses, persons &c. But did Mandarin ever have separate verb forms in the past (and then simplified this over time), or was it always like this?

Also, some simple words sound a lot like words in Indo-European languages, like 爸爸 "father/papa" and others. Is this just coincidence, or was there any loaning of words between Mandarin and Indo-European languages in the past?

My friends who speak Mandarin say that I should learn traditional rather than simplified characters (they did). I've read the pros and cons about this, I guess in the end people serious about learning the language learn both anyway. Can I just ask, do native Chinese people (who have learned simplified) have any difficulty reading traditional characters when they travel to Hong Kong? Or do they learn traditional characters as well on the side, the way Europeans often learn and can speak other European languages from a young age?

Thanks very much!

[LiYuanXi]

In my opinion, I think it is better to learn writing in simplified forms but learn to read both simplified and traditional characters. I didn't get to choose over here in Singapore, so I learnt to write in simplified form and learnt to read both.

[durtal]

Hi, thanks for the tip.

I have the "traditional" (revised) edition of the "Reading and Writing Chinese" book by McNaughton and Ying, but just saw that the third edition has come out, which teaches simplified characters:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804835098/104-8975120-7975112?v=glance&n=283155

I'll buy that tomorrow, 谢谢你.

[LiYuanXi]

No problem! Good luck to you!

[Ferno]

After having learned ancient Greek, I really like how Mandarin doesn't need to have separate verb forms for different tenses, persons &c. But did Mandarin ever have separate verb forms in the past (and then simplified this over time), or was it always like this?

hmm I'm not sure. You should rephrase the question about "ancient spoken Chinese", since Mandarin isn't that old.

Basically, characters don't allow for inflection. Everything that didn't work with characters (such as inflection and multi-syllable morphemes, etc..) was simply removed from the language. Dialects that were never written in characters could have been very different from Mandarin (ie, evidence that some had multi syllable morphemes), but they couldn't really be recorded without adapted to characters. You really can't underestimate how much the Characters have morphed the spoken language.

Also' date=' some simple words sound a lot like words in Indo-European languages, like 爸爸 "father/papa" and others. Is this just coincidence, or was there any loaning of words between Mandarin and Indo-European languages in the past?

[/quote']

ah, the old mama papa/baba/dada issue

it's quite interesting

"ma" is one of the first sounds that a baby can make. Since babies usually spent most of their time with their mothers, when the babies first started making comprehensible nosies (ma ma ma) throughout human history, people assumed the baby was trying to give the mother a name. So the "m-" initial for a mothers name exists as at least one name for a mother in many languages (haven't heard of any where it doesn't), and it has influenced the formal words for mother to varying degrees.

the next sounds that babies make are more varried.. "p" "d" "b" "t" etc.. but the next syllable was naturally assigned to the father "papa" etc..

[imron]

Finnish for mother is äiti.

[Ferno]

that's probably a more formal term. I'm sure "mama" is in there too

[imron]

I couldn't say if there's a less formal term as my finnish is fairly limited, but I believe äiti is quite informal. I lived in Finland for nearly a year, and my Finnish girlfriend would call her mum "äiti", and we had friends who had young children just learning to speak, and the mothers were all called äiti by their children.

[imron]

Also of interest, in Finnish, Dad is isä. Like äiti, this term is also used informally. I guess Finnish babies seem to go for vowel sounds first.

[Ferno]

really

so you won't hear the syllables "ma ma" being said in infant/mother interaction?

[yinyang]

I am a native Finnish speaker. Mum is äiti and dad is isä.

[imron]

And the following is an email exchange I just had with a Finnish friend of mine to check this:

Me:I'm just wondering, besides äiti, are there any other words in Finnish for "Mum" or "Mother"? Spefically, are there any beginning with the letter m?

Her:Haha..actually there is one slang word that I and my friends do use, its "mutsi".

Me:Is it something you would call your Mum, or just something you would use when talking about your Mum with someone else?

Her:Hmm both are ok, but most of us use it only when talking about mum with

someone else. So Finnish seems to lack this mother-word beginning with m.

So it would seem Finnish is exception to the rule..

[yinyang]

About the word mutsi. Little children don't use the word "mutsi". And personally I've neither used nor liked the word mutsi, I think the word doesn't sound very nice, but some teenagers and older ones do use the word mutsi, but little children use the word äiti. You can also say äiskä, äityli jne. The same thing with the word isä (Dad)-> isi, iskä. They are deminutive words.