yi1 diar3?!?

[gato]

According to the 1956 government directive from the central government, Putonghua "should be standarized on the Beijing dialect in terms of its pronunciation, northern dialects in general in terms of its basic vocabulary, and modern Chinese vernacular writing in terms of its grammar."

http://www.china-language.gov.cn/webinfopub/list.asp?id=1145&columnid=165

[话题六] 新中国的推广普通话工作

1956年 2月6日，国务院向全国发出《关于推广普通话的指示》。《指示》说：“由于历史的原因，汉语的发展现在还没有达到完全统一的地步，许多严重分歧的方言妨碍了不同地区的人们的交谈，造成社会主义建设事业中的许多不便……为了我国政治、经济、文化和国防的进一步发展的利益，必须有效地消除这些现象。”

并指出：“汉语统一的基础已经存在了，这就是以北京语音为标准音、以北方话为基础方言、以典范的现代白话文著作为语法规范的普通话。在文化教育系统中和人民生活各方面推广这种普通话，是促进汉语达到完全统一主要方法。”

《指示》还对有关部门提出了具体要求。国务院的这个《指示》，使普通话的定义明确下来。原来，全国文字改革会议关于普通话的定义只说以北方话为基础方言，以北京语音为标准音，而《指示》补充了“以典范的现代白话文著作为语法规范”，这就使普通话的标准更加全面，更加周密了。这个《指示》可以说是新中国推广普通话历史上的第一个重要的里程碑。

There are people who claim that Putonghua is merely Beijinghua as learned by the Manchus and that Mandarin is the latinization of "满大人“.

http://blog.chinesenewsnet.com/?p=7115

　　[第三种北京话的形成——内城北京话(mandarin)]

　　北京城里的一棵小树、厨房里的一件工具，用满语都无法表达！因为满族人的祖先从来没见过这样的植物，从来没见过这样的工具，这就是当时统治中国的满族人所遇到的严酷的语言现实。满语要继续说下去，除了直接使用北京外城汉人的语言的词汇和模仿他们的语音之外再也没有第二种可能！就象日本皇军学说中国话： “你的，八路的，干活？”一样，北京内城的满人开始了他们艰难的模仿汉语的历程。

　　但是满语对比汉语有它先天的残疾，首先，入声字一下子就全丢了，这就是汉语同音字增多最根本的历史原因，用满语套学汉语的发音更是不伦不类，可以肯定地说，这是发音最糟糕的汉语。但是，历史就是这么残酷，满人的这种蹩脚汉语比起日本皇军的蹩脚汉语要幸运得多了！随着使用人口的增加，这种让当时的汉人老百姓笑掉牙的蹩脚汉语成了清朝统治阶级的“共同语言”——这就是早期的普通话（暂时使用英语的称谓把这种语言称为mandarin）。

　　在粤语文化圈里，常听到人们谈论起辛亥革命后的一段掌故。当年，帝制倾覆，共和初肇，在中华民国国会里，要求奉粤语为中国“国语”的呼声很高，支持的票数，已然过半。但孙中山逐一去说服粤籍议员，劝他们放弃粤语，改投北京话一票。最后，凭着孙中山的人望，粤语仅以3票之差，败给了北京话。

[carlo]

I know what you mean Roddy, but even 'Putonghua, as defined in dictionaries, is spoken by educated Chinese' is not 100% true either. There are many highly educated Chinese speakers who speak with an accent, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Northern Chinese are on average likely to produce a better approximation of 'putonghua' only because the standard was arbitrarily defined that way.

As a foreign learner, though, I think it's useful to be consistent, because it's more efficient. Of course it's possible to learn other dialects and accents, but it's much harder because there are few written resources and exposure is a problem, unless you share a room with a native speaker (a possible exception is Cantonese, you can watch 周星驰).

I think it's a bit like Chinese people learning American English: beginners putting on an 'American accent' sound very fake, but then if they spend ten years in the States they can make it sound very natural.

[adrianlondon]

Going back to "er" ...

When I had some tuition in the UK, my Taiwanese teacher taught me that I didn't need to use "er" for any endings if I didn't want to, but I needed to understand them.

This was brought fomr to me when I chatted with my first Beijinger in London and he said "war war" instead of "wan" for "play" (*sorry, I'm not at my PC and there's no SE Asian language support). So I've stuck with this, as when I bravely try my Mandarin, people say my accent is good.

I have a question, though ...

I was taught "zhe li" and "na li" for here and there, but also recognise "zher" and "nar". I prefer the "li" endings as the third tone helps me differentiate, in speech, between "there" and "where" (na4li3 vs na3li3).

Do people in Beijing tend to say "zheli" or "zher"? Will both be understood?

* Sorry again, my post is probably hard to understand. If I get no replies, I might try to post another time when I have a better PC to use :-)

[roddy]

I know what you mean Roddy, but even 'Putonghua, as defined in dictionaries, is spoken by educated Chinese' is not 100% true either. There are many highly educated Chinese speakers who speak with an accent, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Northern Chinese are on average likely to produce a better approximation of 'putonghua' only because the standard was arbitrarily defined that way.

True, of course. I think there are some posts on here about how artificial a construct putonghua is, but I can't remember where.

Adrian - 'zher' / 'nar' is more Beijingish, but you'll hear both. Depends which way the wind is blowing

[kudra]

as for yao

try 47 seconds into this recording

http://classes.yale.edu/chns130/Listening/Audio/08text.mp3

[Luoman]

.

. Are you saying that people who aren't from the north of China can't understand putonghua, but they can understand putonghua without er-hua and neutral tones. .

No, i mean it is easier to communicate with an average Chinese without using erhua, because in general only the minority of Chinese speak with lots of er`s. By the way, many Beijingers use less er`s than people from some other provinces. And many people from the North speak with very few er`s too, while my Sichuan friend puts "er" nearly after every word:mrgreen: .

And as about whether people from the South really cannot understand northeners in many situations - yes, that`s true. For example one day we were sitting in a Chinese cafe in Moscow with our Taiwan clients, and the waiters were from Dongbei. And when a waiter asked 你要俄2语3菜4单1儿吗, the taiwanese didn`t get the idea and asked if I can explain what do the waiter wants. Having understood, they said 哦，俄4文2菜4单1？不要

[md1101]

if you live in china you'll find some words have the 儿(er) chucked on and others dont. you'll learn (just by hearing) what does and you'll probably end up saying it that way yourself or itll just sound too strange. it is not limited to beijing. i lived in xi'an and it happens there to. with words like '有3点3' (you dian)and '饭馆'(fan4 guan3) itll sound very strange to here it without the 'er' on the end. infact 有点is often written as 有点儿.

[asura]

1. 儿化 is an advanced language phenomenon of Northern Dialect. I think most kinds of Northern Dialect (Beijing dialect, Tianjin Dialect, etc.) have 儿化. However, it's not an obstacle to communication between people from north of China and people from south. One of my roommates in university is from Guangdong. We have no difficulty in communicating in putonghua. Though sometimes it does makes some confusion. Because some Chinese words have different meanings when we use 儿化. For example, 表 has a meaning of clock in English, when we say 表儿, it means form or table. Once, my roommate bought some dates and said to me, "wo3 qu4 xi3 zao3." I was very confused because xi3zao3 means 洗澡 to me while 洗枣 is pronounce xi2zaor3.

2. Actually, I hope putonghua is Cantonese. If so, I would master two kinds of dialect, Northern Dialect and Cantonese. Now I can only speak Northern Dialect. When I roommate speak Cantonese, I feel so 郁闷, because I can’t understand.

[mrtoga]

Erhua is not so hard to distinguish once you get used to it, but it can be comical to Chinese when you get it wrong. A teacher once taught me 刺儿 (thorn) required a 儿. I later used the word 讽刺 (sarcasm) with an 儿 which lead to an unexpected burst of hilarity from said teacher.

So I guess the lesson is to only use it when you are sure it is correct and appropriate. I have been told that 饭馆儿　is acceptable but 宾馆儿　is not. I guess there is no rhyme or reason to it.....