主義 (ideology, -ism) and 主意 (idea)

[Ferno]

both are pronounced zhu4yi4 - does one of them having a softening on the second syllable (zhu4yi5), or both, or neither?

[semantic nuance]

Hi,

主義--ideology, and 主意---idea. I pronounce them both as they are. They both pronounce zhu3 yi4, at least in bpmf phonetics.

Hope it helps!

[roddy]

You've got the English the wrong way round in the title, will fix it for you.

The two dictionaries I have closest have the 意 of 主意 as neutral. Of course, then you've got 注意, 逐一, 助益, 竹椅 and 属意 to deal with

[gato]

主 of 主义 should be pronounced zhu3, with the third tone, not the forth.

主意 is pronounced zhu2yi4, zhu with the second tone.

The Chinese word for ideology is actually 意识形态, although that is a more specialized word that probably only the more educated people would know. But in that sense, it also resembles "ideology" because not many native English speakers know what "ideology" means. Most people use "ism" as its equivalent.

意识, by itself, means "consciousness."

[Ferno]

ghaa yeah i know sorry about the mistakes i closed the window and typed it up again in a hurry :o

roddy: you mean for bamboo chair they'd say 竹椅 instead of 竹椅子

and what are 助益 and 属意 - are they 2 syllable words?

[roddy]

I don't know, I just pasted in all the possibilities for 'zhuyi' that the IME suggested, just to scare you.

[Mugi]

主義 (主义) = zhu3 yi4

主意 is pronounced zhu2yi4, zhu with the second tone.

I beg to differ; I think the standard putonghua pronunciation is still zhu3 yi5, however many native northern Mandarin speakers pronounce it as zhu2 yi5.

[eddiewouldgo]

they both pronounce zhu3yi4.

[harrymick]

Mugi said:

I beg to differ; I think the standard putonghua pronunciation is still zhu3 yi5, however many native northern Mandarin speakers pronounce it as zhu2 yi5.

I don't know what 5 of zhu yi5 stand for.

主意 should be pronounced zhu2yi0, 意 without tone or light tone.

[skylee]

I am confused.

According to Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, 主義 is zhǔyì ; 主意 is zhǔyi.

[HashiriKata]

I am confused.

We're in the same boat, skylee!

Anyway, in spite of the standard pronunciations as you cited, many Northerners have decided to pronounce 主意 as "zhu2yi" or "zhu2yi4", (which is quite unforgivable, of course! )

[gato]

Anyway, in spite of the standard pronunciations as you cited, many Northerners have decided to pronounce 主意 as "zhu2yi" or "zhu2yi4", (which is quite unforgivable, of course! )

We are probably talking about "all" northern Mandarin speakers rather than just "many." I've only heard 主意 pronounced zhu2yi and never as zhu3yi. It's a common enough word that if there were two widely used pronunciations, I should have heard them both by now.

[Jose]

This word reminds me of 因为, another case where there seems to be a mismatch between the pronunciation prescribed by dictionaries, yin1wei4, and what most native speakers say, yin1wei2. I wonder if this reflects a recent development.

I tend to follow dictionaries, but does saying zhu3yi and yin1wei4 sound too odd, then?

[HashiriKata]

I tend to follow dictionaries, but does saying zhu3yi and yin1wei4 sound too odd, then?

I don't think so. I think many people in the South of China still pronounce them as you do.

PS: Gato, my use of "many" can be generously considered as a kind of "British understatement"

[bomaci]

Another one which I have come across is "下载". Most dictionaries (at least CEDICT and Wenlin) state that it is pronounced xia4zai4. However it seems to be pronounced xia4zai3 by many chinese. There is also 质量, which is pronounced zhi3liang4 in Beijing.

[WilsonFong]

i hope i'm not diverging too much from the original topic but what about 權利 quan2li4 (right) and 權力quan2li4 (power)? is there also suppose to be a neutral tone at the end of one of these words to distinguish them?

[gato]

Unfortunately, 權利 quan2li4 (right) and 權力quan2li4 (power) are pronounced exactly the same. Both of these are modern Chinese words borrowed from the Europeans in the last hundred years. I don't know who was the wiseguy who thought it'd be funny to use two identically sounding words for these two very different concepts.

[HashiriKata]

I don't know who was the wiseguy who thought it'd be funny to use two identically sounding words for these two very different concepts.

Historically speaking, the pronunciations of 利 and 力 are different (力 ends with a "k" sound whereas 利's final is a vowel.) Difference in the context of use also helps differentiating the two.

[Ferno]

what difference in context?

[WilsonFong]

Historically speaking, the pronunciations of 利 and 力 are different (力 ends with a "k" sound whereas 利's final is a vowel.) Difference in the context of use also helps differentiating the two.

yeah, that's the case with cantonese (score +1 for cantonese:) ), but i don't see how there can be a difference in context. They are both nouns and refer to human attributes/characteristics. If someone says "rénmín yīnggāi yǒu quánlì" how can i tell if that person is saying "the people should have power" or "the people should have rights"?