How to 'correct' the laoshi ????

[wushijiao]

There is a Putonghua test for Chinese people, which I think it called 普通话等级考试. The test mainly consisits of reading characters, while an examiner listens for your pronunciation and tones. If I remember correctly, the test doesn't test pinyin, but a person who passes it wouldn't make a deng/den mistake.

My wife got a job offer to teach Chinese, and her school required that all Chinese teachers would get the highest score possible on that test. Maybe you could suggest that your next teacher be a graduate of that test, or another similar test.

[roddy]

Besides if it's an obvious mistake that you know such as "den yi xia'er" rather than "deng yixiar" then you know how to say it and you know how you might hear it as well. The important thing is that you learn the meaning. It's a bonus that you get to learn the standard and the way others may pronounce it.

Yes, but what is the value of that if the teacher is unable or unwilling to tell you which is the standard and which isn't? People seem to be making the case that 'oh, the teacher is just trying to give you a wider view of Chinese' or something, which I think is overgenerous - from what Mr Stinky has said, it is clear to me that the teacher either doesn't know or doesn't care, and is covering up errors by saying 'this is also correct'.

The teachers job is not, for this class at least, to randomly expose students to different pronunciations with no indication to which ones are and are not standard. It's to teach textbook, standard, Chinese. Yes, a knowledge of other versions of Chinese is useful, but that's not what that class is for.

Consider a student who doesn't realise this and accepts what the teacher tells them - they're going to wind up with incorrect pronunciation and worse, no idea which words are right and which are wrong, making it impossible for them to be accurate in either Putonghua or whatever -hua the teacher has randomly decided to teach them.

I'm amazed anyone would consider this acceptable. Look at the original post - the teacher is saying that these are 'also correct' - she / he is not explaining 'this is the standard putonghua pronunciation, but you'll often hear this version in Kunming'. That is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

Roddy

[mr.stinky]

i'm afraid i forgot to explain the class level. we are in the third week of beginners chinese.

that means, starting with bo-po-mo-fo, and essentially no knowledge of the language. this

is not the time to expose us to different pronunciations or spellings....even if they are

correct. we need to go by the book, learn exactly as in the text, and be beaten by nuns

when we make mistakes.

i had ten weeks of tutoring last semester, tested into the pre-elementary course, but

found it too difficult. reading/writing characters is fairly easy, listening fair, speaking is

pretty crappy (in my opinion at least).

i guess i learned enough to know what's incorrect, which is more than i can say for the

other students who have had no instruction before the session....the ones who studiously

copy down everything written on the board, then go home to memorize it.

her pronunciation of english is 'fair,' of chinese i can't say. (like i'd know!!) however, she

does seem to drop or at least slur the final g's to the point where i can't always understand

what she's saying. makes things difficult with a limited vocabulary, short sentences, and

often little context.

[roddy]

I'd be inclined to first have a quiet word with the teacher after class and let her know that you know her pinyin isn't spot-on. No need to be mean about it of course, but you've got a right to expect accuracy in this situation. If that doesn't lead to a fairly quick improvement (the teacher should really be able to improve overnight by applying a bit more thought and preparation) then I'd raise it with the school. It sounds like you've already been helping with English, so maybe the teacher will be more receptive to your suggestions / comments.

Quick comment on the 'pinyin is learnt in school' theory - so is long division, and I can't do that any more . . .

[adrianlondon]

I need accurate pinyin to help me learn. I can understand my Singaporean friend OK and I know if I copy him my pronunciation will be fine. He also knows pinyin in case I am struggling when he attempts to teach me a new word.

My Taiwanese partner doesn't know pinyin and also randomly changes "sh" to "s" and "zh" to "z". This is common. But I don't want to copy that.

So, I usually get my Singaporean friend to teach me new words and not my partner.

If I was to study in China in a school where they didn't give accurate pinyin, it'd do my head in, and I'd try to leave/change class asap.

Probably because I'm a "sciency" person and not an "arty" one; I'm not good at learning foreign langauges and need rules. Pinyin, to me, is rule-based and hence helps me a lot.

[AnnieTC]

Well, to teach Chinese as a foreign langauge, an instructor is supposed to pass the exam to get a TCFL certificate. And you MUST have another two certificates to be able to apply for this TCFL namely an English certificate ( or others proving your foreign language ability , for English at least CET-4 ) and Mandarin Proficiency Test aka Putonghua Shuiping Ceshi. Chinese teachers are required to get 87 or over, namely Level 2 Grade A. Mostly if someone could pass that, she/he should not have dialect and should have an MOSTLY accurate pronunication over curling tongue sounds, retroflexion (with er ) and neutral tone etc. You might suggest your teacher to take PSC, but I think it's a bit embarrassing......

[roddy]

Mr Stinky, what happened here? Any progress?

Well, to teach Chinese as a foreign langauge, an instructor is supposed to pass the exam to get a TCFL certificate.

Supposed to pass. I don't know how many actually do though, and I'm sure plenty of schools will use unqualified (and cheaper) teachers if they can. Plus, is there even an adequate supply of TCFL qualified teachers? I know very few who have taken it.

Roddy

[atitarev]

Yes, sometimes we have to put up with what is offered, if we still get some value out of it. I am happy I have a chance to work with native speakers. I check the characters in dictionaries, anyway, to see some examples of usages and to learn them faster. So if my previous teacher said màma instead of māma (妈妈). I know, which one is correct but I am sorry for other students don't differentiate between bàba and māma (they pronounce both in the 4th tone!). It is too much for me to handle when she spells 新 as xīng (should be xīn). I said it should be xīn, she said "Don't be too pedantic". I replied that I AM pedantic a bit.

My current teacher is much better, she is Singaporean but speaks a very good Putonghua. I don't agree with some of the grammar explanations but as for the vocab and pronunciation, it's quite good, as far as I can tell.

[mr.stinky]

haven't had a chance to get this teacher alone yet. will try early next week.

however, had a great experience with my tingli teacher today. out of the blue, she apologized

to the the class for giving us an incorrect definition last week. i don't know that anyone

brought it up, maybe she was checking her class notes. later in the class, when someone

asked her a difficult grammar question, she said she didn't know, would look it up, and tell

us next week.

respect for this woman went up about twelve notches. i'll definitely be writing a glowing

performance report to the admininstration about her.

as to the other one, well......