When to start a second dialect?

[L-F-J]

I started this thread to not go off topic in the "too many languages" thread. My question is similar but a little different.

I'm interested in both Mandarin and Cantonese. I've got a few years experience in Mandarin already and have maybe an intermediate level with it. Although I've never had a real class and only studied on my own or with friends. So the learning rate isn't as fast I bet. I already started to learn basic Cantonese from Pimsleur and got it pretty easily.

In Mandarin I'm pretty good at reading, understanding, and speaking but I still have a big problem with understanding what people say when they speak to me. Even if it's something I'd understand written down. So at times I feel afraid to go ahead into Cantonese, but I'm really eager to do so.

My question is when do you think it's good to start the other? At my experience level with Mandarin and lack of classes, would it be good to start Cantonese and not mess up my Mandarin learning? My biggest problem in Mandarin is just listening skills. I'm still learning and have a long way to go to be able to say everything I want. So what do you think?

P.S. The gal I'm gonna marry is a native Cantonese speaker who knows Mandarin and is also an English teacher in USA. So I'll have plenty of practice in the future. I'm just wondering when it's okay to go ahead into Cantonese. Opinions?

[Shusaku]

This is a really good question. My situation is quite similar, except that I started with Cantonese and am now working on Mandarin, while simultaneously working on improving my Cantonese. Like you, I've been studying for a while and consider myself to be at an intermediate level. I estimate that I know approximately 3000 words in Cantonese, and I can get my point across about most everyday topics, but I certainly don't understand 100% of what I hear yet. My main motivation for learning Mandarin is to get a better feel for the differences in grammar and word choice in standard written Chinese, which is something I've mostly neglected thus far. Hopefully learning to read will make it easier to pick up more advanced vocabulary. At this point I'm shooting for a mastery of spoken Cantonese with the ability to at least passively understand Mandarin (in both spoken and written form).

So far I haven't experienced too many problems yet. My biggest issue is that after sitting down and studying Mandarin for a while, it takes me a bit of time to switch my mind back to Cantonese mode (or vice versa) - i.e. I'll accidentally pronounce a word the Mandarin way while speaking in Cantonese. After 10 minutes or so I usually don't have too many problems with this. However, I'm hoping that this problem will lessen and not worsen with time.

I'd really like to hear from others who have managed to tackle multiple Chinese dialects. Do you ever confuse them? Is it better to completely master one before moving to the next, or is it safe to study both once you've reached an intermediate level in the first?

[amego]

HiHi

Hmmm I think its better to brush up your Mandarin a bit more until you are sufficiently good at it that you can't be "influenced" easily and be confused, resulting in grammar and vocab mistakes.

Cantonese has an almost totally different set of sounds, and different grammar to a certain extent, and numerous vocab slangs, its easy to be confused and import them into your Mandarin,or vice versa, which you'll be 两头不着岸 (to end up in nowhere), and be sure to not have any strong Cantonese-accent Mandarin and vice versa...

eg (I hope I'm correct:mrgreen: )

If you give me $1000, ...

Mandarin: 如果你给我一千块，。。。

Cantonese: 如果你俾一千文我。。。

Yupz I heard they said this before, the sentence structure is a bit different...although

"如果你俾我一千文" is also correct...but "如果你给一千块我" is wrong

And Cantonese don't use "把"

Bring that chair here.

Mandarin: 把那张椅子拿過來。

Cantonese: 攞嗰個凳嚟。

(Singaporeans say 拿那张椅子过来 )

One more

警察又點？大哂啊？"So what if you're a police? You think you are that great?"

Imagine you say this Mandarin:

警察又怎样？大到完啊？ Muhahaha, directly from Cantonese, but doesn't makes sense and sounds funny...But you can say

警察又怎样？很大啊？

But more naturally,

警察又怎样？很了不起啊？

So I think its best to stick to practise your Mandarin 1st with your fiancee until you feel that you're really ready Cantonese is a nice language, enjoy!

I really hope what I said was helpful =D

[L-F-J]

Thanks a lot for the long reply!

Yup, I learned some of those grammar things from Pimsleur's Cantonese. I also got a beginners Cantonese book but haven't begun anything. Skimming through it though, I thought it seemed difficult but not too much because I could recognize words and sentences from my Mandarin knowledge. Even if the grammar was a bit backward.

My big problem in Mandarin is listening skills. It's annoying sometimes and I'm too eager to start Cantonese. She told me my Mandarin pronunciation was like a native and my Cantonese pronunciation was not native but sounded cool, whatever that means. I'm sure it's quite a stretch from the truth!

I think it might be best to get my Mandarin skills up a bit more first though. Listening skills are by far the most difficult. It's fun to practice just the sounds of Cantonese though. It sounds so cool and is fun to say. By the time I start learning it I'll be prepared with all the right sounds hopefully. I'll leave the book on the shelf for later use for the time being. Thanks for your advice.

[wushijiao]

Personally, this was a dilemma that confronted me when I tried to pick up Shanghainese, which I have basicaly given up on. Before starting it, I had assumed that learning a so-called dialect of Mandarin would be fairly easy. After a bit of studying, it seemed that learning Shanghainese would require, at least, hundreds of hours of work. So, I decided it was better to use all my spare time to work as hard as possible to become solidly fluent in Putonghua first, before really starting a dialect. The problem is, the process of becoming truly competent never seems to end!

Of course, when asking “when should one learn a dialect”, the answer depends on one’s motivations for learning both Mandarin and the dialect. I suppose that being able to converse with your wife in her native language would be a pretty strong motivation.

[L-F-J]

Shusaku-

Welcome to the forum! I didn't see your post because it wasn't posted by the time I replied. We sound very similar. In learning basic things in Cantonese I noticed I'd say everything in Cantonese and then pronounce one word in Mandarin, until I completely concentrated. I think learning the sounds and getting used to speaking them is important before moving forward onto words and sentences. Although phrases are good sometimes.

Wushijiao-

Shanghainese is interesting. I liked the fact that there were no tones to learn like in other dialects. But I only learned "nong hao va" "xia xia nong" and "zai wei".. oh and "mama ver cei nong". (mama bu li ni) I found it's almost impossible to get any information on this dialect so I gave up too. Cantonese is the second most useful dialect so I want to pick this one up. Besides, like I've been saying it sounds so cool and is fun to pronounce.

I suppose that being able to converse with your wife in her native language would be a pretty strong motivation.

Yeah, she's an English teacher in USA and her English is better than mine! At least, she has a larger vocabulary. Yes, I feel like lol

[gato]

I suppose that being able to converse with your wife in her native language would be a pretty strong motivation.

Being able to converse with the in-laws might be a stronger motivation. Unless they are annoying, in which case it might be better not to learn their language. Hehe.

[wushijiao]

Being able to converse with the in-laws might be a stronger motivation.

Every 春节 I go to spend two weeks with the in-laws, going from this banquet to that banquet, and so and so's house for whole afternoons, talking about the prices of housing and vegetables for hours on end. When my Mandarin skills were poor, this was extremely boring. Now that I can understand almost all of what is said, it is just somewhat boring. Hehe.

[geraldc]

With Cantonese maybe you should start on the words and phrases that you wouldn't use Mandarin for, e.g. ordering dim sum etc.

[L-F-J]

Why do you suggest that, geraldc? In order to not get confused? It would be odd to order food and not know how to introduce oneself. But I'll want to do both at some point.