Finding a REAL job w/o experience ?

[parasite]

I am very much interested in moving to China after I graduate. (In about 2 months.) I would like to find a job in IT, or anything else except English teaching. (Well, by anything else -- I mean a sort of professional career, something that will at least give me good and useful experience on my resume if I ever move back home.) Has anyone here done that (especially in IT) ? And if so -- please tell me about how you found your job, and what recommendations you would make for me.

I've lived1.5 years total in China so far. My Chinese is decently conversational, and I intend to continue to study like mad -- so a job that required a certain level of Chinese would probably be okay. I will get better and better in the coming years.

Oh -- the big problem: I've heard it is pretty easy applying online to get some offers in the 4,000-5,000 rmb range. The problem with this is that: (1) I have TONS of student loans at home that must be paid, this means my minimum is more like 10,000-15,000 just to live a basic life and pay on loans (2) I won't have the willpower to go to work for 40+ hours per week just to earn 4,000-5,000, doing something that might be much harder than English teaching (programming) ! Especially when English teaching would require 1/2 to 1/4th as many hours of work to earn the same!

Any information you can give me is appreciated !

parasite

[novemberfog]

I am a software/electronics engineer in Japan, and though I don't know China, I can tell you what I have learned about Japan. I had an internship in Japan while in college, and after I graduated I found a company that was interested in hiring me. I had work experience in a traditional Japanese company, I submitted a Japanese resume, and I was willing to fly half way around the world for just an interview. I knew it was a risk, but I had to try. The software team was small, and they could not afford an engineer with experience. So, the pay is honestly, quite low, but I wanted the experience of living abroad and getting better at a language I liked. So I took the job, even though I always complain about my salary. I also promised them I would work there for awhile, not just a year and quit. I do intend to keep that promise, even though people tell me loyalty to a company is "stupid in this market".

The best advice I can give you is to work now in your country, and pay down your loans as much as you can. I think it will be very hard to get a high paying job with no real-world (read that as after graduation) experience. Especially since many people just work a year and go home from home sickness or what not. I am sure you will be different because of your prior expeience in China, but many companies have been burned by this type of thing. It is a big investment to hire foreigners, and the risk is high. I am not saying it is impossible. But what reason should anyone pay you such a large rate with no experience?

Definately apply for jobs and what not, but if you don't get the rate you want, then why not pay down most of your loans, get 3-5 years work experience, try to get your HSK scores very high, learn how to write good quality reports in Chinese, and then you could probably find a job in China that pays pretty damn good.

It *is* possible to find a good job if you have contacts in China who can get you interviews. Or if you went to a globally known school in your country, that will help a lot.

I won't have the willpower to go to work for 40+ hours per week just to earn 4,000-5,000, doing something that might be much harder than English teaching (programming) !

I just want to say that you might want to reconsider your attitude about this, especially since you don't have lots of work experience. Your coworkers who will be Chinese will probably be earning this rate, perhaps with more 2 or 3 years more experience than you. At the rate you are asking, they can hire two programmers. Just think about that. If you have experience or offer a skill they really really need, then you might get the rate. But be prepared to work long hours. I have yet to meet any Chinese, Korean, or Japanese programmers who work just 40 hours. The average seems to be 50, and then during *crunch* time, 70 to 80. My good friend in China was working 70 hours a week during normals weeks writing software for a global accounting company. He quit though and is now working as a tour-guide.

Also, don't under-estimate ESL teaching. I have met some really hard working ESL teachers, who moved into translation later and are doing quite well for themselves these days. Better than I am as a software engineer.

[mr.stinky]

what are you offering the company besides:

*fresh degree (from what school, what GPA?)

*no experience

*high salary demand

*unwillingness to work standard IT hours

*fair/passable language skills

how do you intend to compete with chinese or indian programmers with experience, and

who are willing to work long hours for much lower pay? imagine during the interview,

you're asked why you, with no experience, are worth 2-3 times the pay of the thousands

of experienced IT workers currently in the market.

[yingguoguy]

What's your degree in? Computer Science, Chinese or something else?

Speaking as someone who left the IT industry to teach in China, don't be too hard on teaching. After looking at a computer screen for 8 hours a day for six years, I was desperate to find a teaching job...

I personally think that a year teaching abroad is a good plus point on any CV, especially in IT where people tend to be quite introverted. If you take a 20 hour 5000 rmb job you could use some of your free time to help with open sourse projects to get further CV points.

Can you not defer your student loans? In England you don't have to pay anything until a year after graduation, and even then not unless you earn above a certain amount. (certainly more than 5000rmb)

[parasite]

novemberfog: I probably could tolerate being at home for 1-1.5 more years to get experience (though I'd hate everyday of it) -- the reason I don't have that option right now is a girl which has already been waiting many many years for me.

mr.stinky: These *ARE* good questions, but they are no less important than the other angle: even if I got 15,000 RMB, it is a measley sum compared to the 35,000+ or better RMB I could be making per month working at home with no experience (or at least after a very short time). Being in China in that case is almost like paying 20,000RMB month for the privledge of being in a place with a much much lower standard of living. So if your questions make sense, then what would any company at HOME be so stupid to pay that kind of salary to locals when the Chinese or Indian programmer over the internet can do the same job ? And, infact, they could hire 7 Chinese programmers for the same money as would be my minimum to work for them "fresh out of school". Why would they be so dumb then ? Well, I don't have the answer --- but there must be a good one.

Also --- as per hours, look at Chinese programmer salary. That is 20 kuai per hours if you are saying 60 hour work weeks. I could make more money than that clicking fricking banner ads on the internet and selling my dead skin cell dust on Ebay. What use is working for a company 60 hours a week of my life just to have a visa! I can find some other way to get a visa than that sillyness!

yingguoguy: Asian Studies and Computer Science. Teaching isn't the worst thing, actually I'm real interested in studying L2 acquisition... I just couldn't stand spending more than like 2 years doing that. And if I get to china and 2 years are over, and I was teaching ... and I still want to stay in China -- then what ? I'm in lots of trouble: I haven't paid my loans down, and I don't have a career field to move up the ladder in. Nor can I go home and start from the point of having GOOD experience. I don't know anything about defering loans, I'll have to look into that.

[gato]

So if your questions make sense, then what would any company at HOME be so stupid to pay that kind of salary to locals when the Chinese or Indian programmer over the internet can do the same job ? And, infact, they could hire 7 Chinese programmers for the same money as would be my minimum to work for them "fresh out of school". Why would they be so dumb then?

They can't do that easily because the US doesn't issue visa to every Indian or Chinese who applies and not everything can be done over the internet. But these companies have been contracting out their work and are hiring more and more in their overseas operations.

See this article on Microsoft.

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/dec/07gates.htm

Microsoft to hire 3,000 in India: Gates

December 07, 2005

World's largest software maker Microsoft on Wednesday said it will scale up its India operations by increasing the local headcount by 3,000 over three to four years, taking the total strength to 7,000.

of being in a place with a much much lower standard of living.

Don't forget the much lower cost of living. You can live almost luxuriously in many places in China on 5000 yuan per month. Good luck trying to do that anywhere in the US.

In any case, I think it would be very difficult for you to find an IT job in China because China already has a virtually unlimited supply of IT workers from its own universities. Probably your only advantage over them is that you're fluent in English. That advantage would be your meal ticket if you teach English, but it's not worth nearly as much in IT.

[novemberfog]

What use is working for a company 60 hours a week of my life just to have a visa! I can find some other way to get a visa than that sillyness!

It may be "sillyness" to you, but that is the office culture in many Asian countries. You say you want to work in China, in a professional career, but are you ready for what you might experience? If you leave at 5 PM everyone will be talking behind your back, your manager will be looking down on you, and you might not make it through the next year's employee review. Doesn't matter at all if you get all of your work done by 5 PM, because there will always be more for you.

From reading your posts, it seems you have three issues here:

1) loans need to be paid

2) want a job that leads to a long-term career

3) want to quickly be with your girlfriend

It is possible to get all three done as an ESL teacher. You CAN save money if you live frugally. If you live with someone else and share the rent, that will also help.

For one thing, I don't think going and teaching English in China for two or three years is going to ruin your resume/CV. Keep up your programming or IT skills, improve your Chinese, you know the drill. When you go back to your home country, your knowledge of China and Chinese might land you a job in international sales or business, which would be a lot a nice place to start a career. Now 10 years of ESL might make it hard, but you can still do it with MBAs or through your people network. Just remember your network of humans will be more valuable than IT skill or language skill. If someone wanted to go abroad for a few years, then come back and start their IT career, I would not look on that as bad at all. It shows real initiative and drive.

Now if you want to be a career programmer immediately, than that is where we talk about the labor market. gato was absolutely correct in his assessment. IT has become a commodity market. In the 90s it was a hot market, every company had an IT department. But you will find that lots of companies have contracts with IBM, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumann, Accenture, or big IT and defense companies with IT groups. Thus the IT staff is really IBM and friends, and they are just assigned to take care of XYZ corporation. *Most* software is contracted out to large software houses that can get it done fast, rather than doing the project in house and taking months and months. And if you are following IT headlines, IBM does lay off in high salary markets. Last year they made 30,000 people redudant in Europe. And then they open up a new office in Bangalore or Shezhen with in the near future. If you want to read more about this type of action, look into the Intel CEO. He is notorious for laying off in California and then hiring in Shanghai. And says the reason is the California engineers are "out of date". There are still jobs in IT for good people, but not as many as their used to be. Anyway, that is getting into a whole different conversation so lets leave it.

You will find that most expats with big salaries in East Asia worked for 5-10 years in their home country, and then were assigned to Asia-Pacific. They moved up in their company, and are important people. The don't write the reports for the investors or write software parts for the bank software. They manage and design. Most of the IT guys build infrastructure or design software architecture. They are Cisco experts or Enterprise Java experts, perhaps security experts.

There are some regular programmers, I know a few. But they are married to Japanese women and they do not need a work visa since they have the spouse visa. They also make the same salary as the Japanese programmers. I'd expect China would be similar. There is a cost saving for North American employers to hire from India/China. But Europe has the EU talent pool to pull from. Ireland is very hot for IT workers right now due to low wages and cost ofliving. Now what about China? They have a low-cost solution: their own citizens, who have no problem with Chinese, and probably at least read and understand English rather well since most technical manuals are in English (and translated if there is a demand).

To keep this short, I think there is not a sure or fast way to get a career with a big salary in a foreign country where the currency is valued at less than your own country's. Especially with no professial work history behind you.

By all means look and apply for open jobs, but don't get discouraged or upset if you do not get replies. I know it is a tough situation, but there is no easy answer.

[jbiesnecker]

Even if I got 15,000 RMB, it is a measley sum compared to the 35,000+ or better RMB I could be making per month working at home with no experience (or at least after a very short time). Being in China in that case is almost like paying 20,000RMB month for the privledge of being in a place with a much much lower standard of living.

You say that there's a girl waiting for you here? If the pay cut you'd take coming to China makes it not worth coming back here, then don't come. Stay home. Yeah, it sucks, but life is full of sucky decisons. Welcome to Grownupville.

People with no experience don't come to China to make money. Look at the jobs with expat salaries that are listed here and they're virtually all for managers. Especially in the big cities, where a job that had anywhere near the salary that you're asking would almost certainly be, there are a lot of Chinese with more experience with you, fluent Chinese, decent English (particularly for IT) that are willing to work for less. Were I a hiring manager I'm just not sure what advantages you would bring to the table.

[gato]

Google is hiring in Beijing, but note that it's asking for "outstanding written and oral communication skills in Chinese and English."

http://beijing.craigslist.org/eng/143692590.html

Google: Technical Solutions Engineer (Product Spec. Eng) - Beijing

http://beijing.craigslist.org/eng/143644402.html

Google: Technical Solutions Engineer (Partner Reliability Engineer)

http://beijing.craigslist.org/eng/134201369.html

Sales Engineer - Beijing

Check out the rest of craigslist ads to get some idea of what's available:

http://beijing.craigslist.org/jjj/

[mr.stinky]

i think you need to re-evaluate your priorities, decide what is essential, and then try to

determine what is realistic.

what's NOT realistic is to come to a low-wage/low cost-of-living country and demand

high-rent wages. especially if you have nothing to offer your potential employer, other

than (i assume) a white face and lack of ambition.

that measly 4-5000 RMB is a pretty damn good salary here, plenty of eager, young,

possibly experienced programmers will gladly take it - and put in 80 hours for the

privelage.

why don't u.s. (western) firms hire more indian programmers? dude, read the business

news. it's called outsourcing. in the absence of union/contractual/security reasons,

manymanymany firms are hiring overseas. programmers, call centers, medical

transcription, tax returns....anything easily sent via electronic means, even some

hardcopy.

so why can't the girl join you, at least for a couple years, until you have enough

experience to make yourself more valuable?

[liuzhou]

So, teaching isn't a REAL job?

[parasite]

liuzhou: Teaching is a real job. But if I ever did go back to the country I'm in, the experience won't help me in the least to get a decent job, because unfortuantely everyone here already knows English, --- often better than me.

Thanks for all the replys! Though I was really hoping that the people who replied would mention what THEY are doing (and thus prove their opinions are qualified as opposed to just random arguing). I know a number of people who have gotten themselves into really good positions, and they didn't start off a whole lot better than me -- but in different fields than mine. So---sure you can talk until your face is blue about how this or that doesn't make sense, but I'm damn sure there are a lot of folks who've gotten what I want or better.

Please mention why your opinion has more weight than this evidence -- or why these people are very lucky, etc.. The reason I posted -- is that *although* I know people in positions like I would like to find, it is always nice to have a broader base of opinions so I don't get an unreasonable idea/bias about how things really are. ALSO --- Everyone is really hounding the IT point. I *did not* say that I was only interested in IT. Actually, it sounds like it is the worse chance from what you've said. I'll gladly take other positions at a company --- I've heard about a lot of foreigners being put into positions in which they have no experience. Anyone out there have that kind of job ?

"so why can't the girl join you, at least for a couple years, until you have enough

experience to make yourself more valuable?"

haha good question. I guess you made me realize that isn't the exact reason. I guess it would be better to just stay I can't stand being here, and I don't imagine I could tolerate it long enough to endure such a thing. I mean --- if getting off work at night isn't a *good* thing but a miserable thing because you have to return to your *life*... well, I won't last too long here God only knows by what method she could get a visa,... and then if you don't stay at least 3 years to get the permanent residence/citizenship or whatever, it defeats the whole purpose because you'll have to do the whole process again later. Frankly I'm just terrified of the idea of being *stuck* here for 4+ years (including visa wait time).

parasite

[jbiesnecker]

Parasite,

Fair enough. I'm a professional English-Chinese translator in Shanghai with a large and reputable international company. I started out teaching English in Hangzhou, did that for two years while busting my balls to learn Chinese. Moved to Shanghai and just landed this job. I make somewhere around US$25K/year, which isn't wonderful but in China (even in Shanghai) it sure isn't bad either.

I came to China for the experience, knowing full-well that earning that experience would cost me some income in the short-term (that is, my salary is lower than it would have been in the US). It let me quickly build my Chinese to a rather high level, though, and in that regard was more than worth the money I left on the table when I left the United States.

I actually know very few "lucky" people in good jobs here. Most either worked for their company in their home country and transferred here, or busted ass working to build some skill while here (normally Chinese fluency) so as to make themselves more marketable.

[parasite]

jbiesnecker: English TO Chinese ? I'm rather surprised! I was under the presumption that translators almost ALWAYS go foreign_language->mother_tongue direction, just because to get that perfect grammar in the L2 is going to take like 10x the years and effort than just getting to a super-high reading/listening comprehension level takes. How many years did you study Chinese before you went to Hangzhou ? (Two years seems unbelievable).

I'm ready to bust my ass learning Chinese, because I need it for my future plans anyway (graduate school)... but what exactly is YOUR definition of busting one's ass ? I can gladly go 3-4 hours/day hardcore (more if I'm not working), but beyond that brain absorption shuts down hehe.

Do you consider your job a pretty lucky find, or is it just a matter of having Chinese as good as your and such a job as yours should be relatively "available" ?

Do you have any rough estimations of how many "doors" you think each respective level of Chinese fluency opens ? (ie, 'basic conversation', 'full book reading ability', 'ability to attend regular university courses', etc.)

THANKS!

parasite

[jbiesnecker]

Parasite,

Oops, that should have been Chinese-English. Actually in China a lot of Chinese translation houses employ Chinese translators going English-Chinese and Chinese-English, and it shows.

I normally study about two hours a day, and have almost constantly since September 2003. Further, I'm immersed in it--I talk to people, I read the newspaper on the subway, I read Chinese novels in my spare time, etc.--so I figure I probably accumulate more actual study time than the two hours I devote.

I actually don't consider my Chinese to be that great. There's so much room for improvement and a million 成语 to learn, but I think that basically if your Chinese is good enough you can find a job other than teaching English. I actually got a shot at this job through my personal network, which makes it fall a bit into the 'lucky' category I suppose, and as novemberfog noted building that personal network is more important than basically any skill you have.

I would say that any Chinese skills under pretty advanced conversational don't open many doors, though they are a boon in a lot of other general life ways. Most higher-level jobs are increasingly looking for fluent Chinese speakers, as there are more and more of them available, so having the 'able to attend regular university classes' level will certainly open a lot of opportunities.

[mind_wander]

jbiesnecker,

I was interested on this subject manner, since maybe one day after graduation heading to Shanghai, China. Almost, like parasite, but the difference I am an Asian-America both fluent in English and speak medocre Chinese Mandarin(needs more work, don't mind heading to Universities to study 2 hrs). I am currently studying on my BA for Business degree. I like to work on certain problems that people had never considered before and take advantage on the projects as something positive as learning experience. I had taken a career test, it shows more qualified as Human Resource Recruiter and Marketing. Also, I can be an Chinese-English translater Orally, can't read too much Chinese, more toward English. In college, I see hardworking Asians, would flipout an Chinese Dictionary for defining some English words, in which I understand. I would do the same, if I am trying to find a Chinese Mandarin.

I think the best advantage with some experience in the business work is that I can help a native with the English reading part and define it. Also, if there are Chinese Mandarin text, they can help me out, then make friends.

Also, I see many people posted about the hours. What is the approx. times per day without having your boss, do not scrull at you? Also, did you say you make $25k per year, now is that in RMB or USD? I can live with that.. as I understand the general idea of the Asian ways.

Sam

[novemberfog]

Also, I see many people posted about the hours. What is the approx. times per day without having your boss, do not scrull at you? Also, did you say you make $25k per year, now is that in RMB or USD? I can live with that.. as I understand the general idea of the Asian ways.

Well, my boss is at his desk all day, but I am sure he spends half of the time sleeping. You don't know how many times I walked to his desk only to see him snoring. But hey, he made it through the system this far. the president doesn't even care if he's sleeping. Now that is efficiency.

In my opinion, many asian companies take care of employees on a basic level by providing benefits and transportation fees and other incentives. The question is, are you willing to work typical east asian hours to launch your carrer? No doubt, you can make it big for yourself being different from other laowai. But when it comes time to work, are you willing ot take the task?

[mind_wander]

Absolutely, if they can help take care of the benefits, basic needs, and flexible time(not refering to laziness). As, long the employers know that I am also going back to school, I will try my very best to complete the given task. It isn't easy starting at first because it depends on the pace, it could be slow of fast.

I am surprised that your boss was sleeping, and didn't get into trouble, well it is kinda like that in the U.S. too. But, I don't want to be caught sleeping on camera, and get the pink slip, for something stupid.

The biggest advantage for me, that the native Asians, would not able to tell me apart, until the American traits starts to show up. However, I willing to learn,if given the chance.

Sam

[parasite]

I actually don't consider my Chinese to be that great. There's so much room for improvement and a million 成语 to learn, but I think that basically if your Chinese is good enough you can find a job other than teaching English.

Hehe I tracked down some of your old posts, and saw something that you were shooting for HSK level 8. Actually, I don't know exactly what that level is, but... I didn't know translation work can be done at that level! Actually, I never even considered translation (amongst my list of many many possibilities) just because I thought my English isn't good enough. The more I pay attention -- the more I notice the vast quantity of English words which I have seen hundreds upon hundreds of times in my life time, but still gloss over, pretending I know what they mean... Is this a serious problem for doing translation work ?

(For example, some that I wrote down today just to have an example: solemn, sedan, thatch, alkali, son-in-law, daybreak.) I know roughly that son-in-law is a connection through marriage, but I can't for the life of me remember what exactly it is...

I actually got a shot at this job through my personal network, which makes it fall a bit into the 'lucky' category I suppose, and as novemberfog noted building that personal network is more important than basically any skill you have.

I'm going to start a new thread asking for tips on how people were successful at growing their personal networks in China. (Like, sure it's probably easy enough to make *friends* with 100 random people on the street... but literally random people aren't good leads.)

I would say that any Chinese skills under pretty advanced conversational don't open many doors, though they are a boon in a lot of other general life ways. Most higher-level jobs are increasingly looking for fluent Chinese speakers, as there are more and more of them available, so having the 'able to attend regular university classes' level will certainly open a lot of opportunities.

Hrm. So perhaps I was under a mistaken impression. I always thought the main thing is that 99.9% of people there are going to have better Chinese than me for a long, long time to come, so since it definitely isn't even a 'skill' when it is the lingua franca of the land, I thought learning to a real high level isn't useful -- because if they do find a way to put me to good use, it definitely WON'T be doing something 99.9% of everyone else can already do better (or perfectly).

[jbiesnecker]

Hehe I tracked down some of your old posts, and saw something that you were shooting for HSK level 8. Actually, I don't know exactly what that level is, but... I didn't know translation work can be done at that level!

I'm fairly confident of my ability to score an 8 on the HSK, and by the end of the year I'd like to be pushing 10 or so. 8 is the highest intermediate level, and allows one to understand most everything. Also, my English level is quite high as it's always been my strongpoint and my passion, and I think that is almost as important as Chinese in terms of translation.

So perhaps I was under a mistaken impression. I always thought the main thing is that 99.9% of people there are going to have better Chinese than me for a long, long time to come, so since it definitely isn't even a 'skill' when it is the lingua franca of the land, I thought learning to a real high level isn't useful -- because if they do find a way to put me to good use, it definitely WON'T be doing something 99.9% of everyone else can already do better (or perfectly).

Well, obviously native Chinese speakers are going to have a better level of Chinese than you (or I) for a long, long time, but for the most part you're not going to be competing against them for jobs, you're going to be competing against other expats. In Shanghai at least, it seems like the general expat population's Chinese is not that great, but it's getting better and better. Obviously Chinese ability in itself isn't a skill, but when combined with other skills (English fluency, for one) it becomes something useful.