上海话-Shanghainese, the allocation of characters

[rose~]

I am learning 上海话 shang4 hai3 hua4 Shanghainese, and in some of my books, the Shanghainese is written in characters, for example:

侬好勿?

nong ho va?

how are you?

What I would like to know is, could you say that the character "侬" (nong) here is used just to represent the sound, or does "侬" actually mean "you"?

If it is just representing the sound, then who is in charge of deciding which characters represent what? And is it set by anyone that "侬"nong should be "你"?

What I am really trying to ask is, how much authority do these characters have? As far as I know, you can see magazines with those special Hong Kong characters in them, and they seem to be set. But where, if anywhere, can we see these "Shanghainese characters"?

[Mugi]

rose~, what books specifically are you referring to?

To answer you question though, 侬 is the correct character for "you" in Shanghainese. Chinese languages have typically developed two words for "you": 你 (probably derived from 汝 <- 女) and 侬 (derived from 农). In some languages (most notably Min 闽), 侬 means "person" as opposed to "you".

Some Shanghainese characters you'll see in textbooks will be mere representations of sounds; many of the "standardized" Cantonese characters are the same (and in fact, there are many such examples in Mandarin too). Some scholars go to great lengths to try and verify the characters used to represent Shanghainese, but others are pretty haphazard.

As for finding stuff written in Shanghainese, I don't think you'll have too much luck. A culture for writing in the vernacular has never developed, unlike with Cantonese (although this is still very limited).

[rose~]

Thanks for the great explanation.

I wonder why you can find things written in special Cantonese characters but not Shanghainese?

I feel like it's schizophrenic here, the language on the announcements, the TV and radio is ONLY Mandarin but everyone else is talking in Shanghainese. Which is fine, but it just feels like a big pretence to me. And whenever you try to talk about it to anyone here, they just play down the significane of Shanghainese like they are embarassed about it.

It feels wierd to me...

My books are:

Shanghai Dialect for Foreigners, 上海话600句 shang4 hai3 hua4 600 ju2 and 听听讲讲上海话 ting4 ting4 jiang3 jiang3 shang4 hai3 hua4.

Oh I realised now my first post had a mistake, it should be 侬好口伐 nong ho va, but the "口" should be a radical, but that character does not appear on my IME...

So, going off your post, in fact I needn't really bother with these characters used to represent Shanghainese as they are sometimes chosen arbritrarily...?

[Mugi]

I think I have one or other of those books at home - will have a look through them tonight and get back to you about their accuracy.

I wonder why you can find things written in special Cantonese characters but not Shanghainese?

I doubt much of a written Cantonese culture would have developed if Hong Kong hadn't have been under British rule (and not under control of a central Chinese authority) for a century...

...It feels wierd to me...

I know what you mean. There is definitely something to be said for having a common language for a single political entity, but I think people should be encouraged to take pride in their local language and culture. The current situation is a real shame...

The reason you can't find [口伐] on your IME is because it is a "dialect" character (方言字) made specifically for Shanghainese and other closely related Wu (吴) languages. Having said that, it is pretty standard in Shanghainese textbooks.

In my opinion, learning characters for Shanghainese is fairly pointless. You won't find anything written in Shanghainese outside of textbooks and the odd sign or bit of graffiti. And it doesn't help much in remembering the pronunciation of words. However, it can be fun just for the hell of it, and if you have a good grasp of Mandarin (and written Chinese) already, it can help in matching sound differences between the two languages, which in turn helps you guess at how to pronounce something in Shanghainese that you've never learnt before.

ps 句 = ju4; 听 = ting1

[gato]

Rose, there was a similar discussion a while ago, see

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=59916&highlight=shanghainese+characters#post59916

[Mark Yong]

I wonder why you can find things written in special Cantonese characters but not Shanghainese?

I doubt much of a written Cantonese culture would have developed if Hong Kong hadn't have been under British rule (and not under control of a central Chinese authority) for a century...

Standard written Chinese in Hong Kong today is generally based on standard Mandarin (普通話) grammar, as written in Mainland China and Taiwan - though (as I have observed and written in a separate forum thread), the Taiwanese grammar is slightly more formal. The only difference is that the text is read out using Cantonese.

(Note that I am referring to standard written Chinese, not colloquial Cantonese.)

The differences in historical circumstances notwithstanding, I do believe that if one really tried, it is actually possible to read standard Mandarin texts using Shanghainese pronunciations, in the same way that Cantonese pronunciation is used in Hong Kong. Do not forget that prior to the language reformation at the turn of the century, Classical Chinese 文言文 texts were being read using pronunciations based on the local vernacular of the respective readers.

Of course, there are many words in Shanghainese that do not have Hanzi 漢字 to represent them, or the original Hanzi 漢字 are words very seldom used today. I myself frown upon many of the incorrect 假借 used in Hong Kong to represent Cantonese words (one example that comes to mind is 'to give', or 'bei' - which should be 畀, but is now written as 俾, just by borrowing the sound).

In the case of words that obviously have no Hanzi 漢字 to represent them, I have to agree with Mugi that attempting to write them is a pointless exercise (e.g. 阿啦 = 我). However, in the case of Shanghainese words which do have legitimate Hanzi 漢字, I think the recording of such words is a worthwhile and linguistically-enriching exercise. I justify my statement with the following two (2) reasons:

1. The current vocabulary of standard Mandarin is based largely on the dialect of Beijing. As such, many equally-legitimate words as used in other dialects, and even in Literary Chinese, were excluded when Mandarin became the written standard.

2. Many people forget that standard written Mandarin today also absorbed a large quantity of words that were contributed by the Wu 吳 dialects (which includes Shanghainese), words that were originally not in the base Beijing dialect. In my humble opinion, to conveniently absorb words from the rich Wu 吳 dialect where the chosen base is deficient in... and then turn our backs on the dialect by designating it as a "lower-class" dialect relative to Mandarin (citing the "Be A Modern Shanghainese - Speak Mandarin" slogan as an example), is being both unfair and ungrateful to the Shanghai dialect - a Sinitic language that is just as much a part and standing of the Chinese language.

I know what you mean. There is definitely something to be said for having a common language for a single political entity, but I think people should be encouraged to take pride in their local language and culture. The current situation is a real shame...

Hear, hear. I do not disagree that linguistic unity binds a country together. But killing off the rich lingustic variety as a means to an end is indeed a shame. Sadly, the same language situation is occurring in Singapore, with the bulk of the 1980's-born children being unable to speak their true mother-tongues, and being brought up with the politically-ingrained belief that Mandarin is the only true form of the Chinese language.

Just my two-cents worth...

[skylee]

I wonder why you can find things written in special Cantonese characters but not Shanghainese?

Perhaps you could take a look at 海上花列傳, which is, as I've heard, written in the Wu dialect.

[ameliasj]

Actually, we Shanghainese usually write "侬好伐？" for "你好吗？" on local newspaper or something like that.

There's no standard characters for Shanghainese since it is mainly a spoken dialect, while sometimes on the local newspaper or during a friendly chat we may use some characters, such as "白相" for play, "老" for very, "么劲" for dull or boring, "侬了做啥？" for what are you doing etc.

Some books may use characters to make it easy to understand, but the characters printed on those books may sometime not recognized by Shanghainese.

[rose~]

Thanks everyone so far! 谢谢侬 zia zia nong

This is interesting stuff! Well, I think it is at least...

Ameliasj, I am interested in your opinion as a "shanghai ning"...would you say that sometimes you might use those characters like 侬，伐，勿，咶 in instant messaging or email?

So, these characters which are being used in my textbooks sometimes:

-represent both the sound and the meaning of the Shanghainese word

侬，啥， 勿

-representing the sound only and not the meaning

伐， 阿拉， 差头 (charter=taxi), 亻那 (na=you, should be 1 character)

-represent the meaning and not particularly the sound

今朝

Wow! I was just looking at 上海话 600句 and it says on page 110, "没关系" is "勿要紧" in Shanghainese. Ever since I got here I have been wondering, why do people keep on saying “不要紧，不要紧·，as they say it even in Mandarin too, a lot, and I just didn't know why! I was thinking, "stop telling me to calm down"!

[ameliasj]

Well, "阿拉" may be the most frequently used one and seem to be established by usage.

To me, I often use "拿" instead of "那" for "you", as I think the sound are more like.

Also, you may notice that in Shanghai, we often say "礼拜" for "week", I myself often say "礼拜一，礼拜二......" instead of "星期一，星期二....." （even in Madarin）. So it may be distinguishable even by listening to a Shanghainese talking in Madarin.

It seems that you have a text book on Shanghainese, wow, I am quite interesting 'cause many people said that even Shanghainese sometimes can't answer the questions on those books. It is a so daily used dialect that we seldom regard it as a real language.

[Mark Yong]

Wow! I was just looking at 上海话 600句 and it says on page 110, "没关系" is "勿要紧" in Shanghainese. Ever since I got here I have been wondering, why do people keep on saying “不要紧，不要紧·，as they say it even in Mandarin too, a lot, and I just didn't know why! I was thinking, "stop telling me to calm down"!

Actually, "不要緊" is also used in 閩南語, pronounced "bue-iao-kin". Most of the Sourthern dialects do not use "沒關係", because it connotes the meaning of "there is no relation", rather than "not to worry". So, in this sense, you would feel right at home in 福建省!

Actually, I have not been able to find the character "啥" in my old dictionaries. Only the modern dictionaries list its definition as 甚麼. I presume it was a latter adoption from Shanghainese into Mandarin.

[rose~]

I seem to remember 啥 is used in Sichuan dialect- "这是啥子”.

Hmm, 闽南话， that was my last failed attempt at dialect learning... "wa gen lee gong ho...!"

In the end it wasn't essential because Taiwanese would always switch to 国语 in front of me.

Unfortunately I am not finding that in Shanghai, many people will talk for hours in 上海话 in front of me, I mean whole converstaions lasting half an hour or so, and it is getting me down. So I am having to learn this dialect, not necessarily to speak but to understand.

I don't have that problem at work, though, as everyone is from all different Provinces they all have to use 国语, thank goodness!

[cjbaker]

啥 sha2 and 咋 za3 are always used instead of 什么 and 怎么 where I lived in Baoji, even when speaking with more standard Mandarin pronunciation. It sounds very formal now to hear the full forms.

[rose~]

precious chicken? xD

[Mugi]

rose~, as it turns out I don't have either of the books that you mention, so can't comment on them after all. Sorry. (Will be travelling to Shanghai in a couple of weeks though, so might check them out then).

Originally posted by Mark Yong

Actually, I have not been able to find the character "啥" in my old dictionaries. Only the modern dictionaries list its definition as 甚麼. I presume it was a latter adoption from Shanghainese into Mandarin.

I don't think it's a case of "borrowing" as such. Such basic words as "what", when they are borrowed from one language by another, are usually done so at a very early satge of contact. "What" shares a common derivation (at least partly) among many Sinitic languages and in one sense it's just coincidental that many languages end up shaying "sha" or something similar.

"啥" is common throughout Mandarin speaking areas, including Beijing. The character is arbitrary, no matter what language - Mandarin, Shanghainese, Hokkien, etc - it's used only to signify the sound.

[rose~]

Thanks anyway, Mugi

I will try to put up some sample sentences to compare the available textbooks.

I found that one of these books is reviewed here

[-Ross-]

啥 is to 什么 as "Wassup?" is to "What is up?".

It is a natural shortening of the combination of sounds to one smaller sound - exceptionally common in vernacular language. 啥 is just a character representing a phonetic which is reasonably similar.

Say 什么 10 times quickly, but without closing your lips. You'll see what I mean.

[schimbulan]

There is a online dictionary of Shanghainese. Some of the sinolect is Shanghai specific.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/lqxu/blyshlee/zh/index.htm

And also record.

[rose~]

Thanks for the link. There really does seem to be a lack of Shanghainese materials on the Internet.

Here is a question for those with IT skills: if I wanted to create a basic database of Shanghainese words which people could consult as a dictionary, where do I start in terms of how to create it (in terms of IT, not language!) ? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Mugi]

rose~, you might want to post your latest question on the Chinese Computing and Technology forum on this site.

Also, check out Adam Sheik's Cantonese learning site, in particular the CantoDict. I'm sure Adam would be able to steer you in the right direction.