Chinese degree -- in the U.K.

[PaoYu]

Hiya,

So, what's the general consensus about doing a BA Chinese in the U.K. (more specifically: At SOAS)? I'd be interested to hear opinions about that one.

Having perused the forums it seems that - unsurprisingly - people think studying Chinese in China is the best option. I certainly imagine that one would pick up Chinese language and culture at a much faster rate than studying at an English university. But how about things like classical Chinese and history, the more academic side of things; are they taught as rigorously in China?

Certainly, if one wanted to get a job in the U.K. (or indeed abroad, with the exception of China itself) wouldn't a degree from, say, London University, outweigh a degree from China - even if the actual level of Chinese attained by the latter was higher?

And how about finding employment in Asia, and more specifically China, with a BA Chinese from the U.K.? Generally how respected (or not) would it be?

As you may have gathered, I am seriously considering doing a degree in "Chinese - Modern and Classical" at SOAS. I have been offered a place and am on the verge of accepting. For that reason I am rather biased in favour of studying in the U.K.; but by all means, (informed) input to the contrary would be just as valued.

Hopefully a few of you have experience in this, but in case you want to have a look at the SOAS syllabus then here it is: http://www.soas.ac.uk/studying/courseinfo.cfm?courseinfosectionsid=895 . It is very clearly laid out and easy to read. The second year is spent at Beijing Normal University, too.

[rose~]

I have been in the same position as you in the past.

One thing to bear in mind is, if you come job-hunting to China, people are wanting you because you are a foreigner, whatever they think that will bring.

So, do they want you to have a degree from Qinghua or from Yale or SOAS?

I'd say the latter, for now anyway. And unfortuntely, there is no Chinese Mainland univerisity ranking amongst the world's best at the moment. But SOAS or Oxford/Cambridge do. Chinese people know that, that is why so many do ALL THEY CAN to study abroad.

But really, your Chinese would be more fluent if you studied in China.

If you do study here, I'd say go for the biggest "name" that you can, Beijing University, Qinghua or Fudan.

Or have you considered studying in Taiwan or HK? There you might be able to combine education in a more developed setting but still keep up your Chinese. (Yes I do know it's Cantonese in HK).

There are some nice scholarships in Taiwan.

[gato]

As Rose said, getting a UK degree is probably the safer bet. Since you're still thinking about getting a BA in Chinese in the UK, I'm guessing that your Chinese wouldn't be good enough to study at the university level in China. Even after four years of university Chinese in the UK, one's Chinese is still likely to be at best at a junior high, low high school level by Chinese standards.

[novemberfog]

In general, university name is a good thing in Asia. If you go to a world famous school, it will open the doors for entry into big name companeis as well. Skill and talent matter of coruse, but Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, Yale...they are all names that draw attention, especially to Intl. companies.

However...I think your Chinese will be much better if you study in China. You will be speaking Chinese daily, seeing Chinese daily -- total immersion into a Chinese environment. But! If you want to go to graduate school in the UK someday, it might be harder to do so with a degree from China. Like you also said, companies in the UK will probably perfer a UK degree.

But how about things like classical Chinese and history, the more academic side of things; are they taught as rigorously in China?

It depends on what you study in China I think. I have an acquiantance in Beijing who majored in Chinese and English literature. She writes simplified characters, but she has no problem reading traditional. She studies 18th century literature, and reads classical Chinese as a hobby. Granted she is Chinese, but you could study similar things.

What you learn and what you do will be up to, no matter where you study. Make use of your resources, talk with the instructors...what you learn is all in your hands. I wish I would have done that more when I was a student.

And how about finding employment in Asia, and more specifically China, with a BA Chinese from the U.K.? Generally how respected (or not) would it be?

I don't know that having a BA in Chinese is going to help with employment at all. So you can speak Chinese and English...what else can you do? I guess if you want to work in translation that would be helpful. If you want to work in a Chinese-speaking country, *normally* you need to be able to speak and understand Chinese, and you also need a skill. So it might be a good idea to study two subjects, one you really love, like Chinese, and then perhaps economics, engineering, or some type of practical studies.

Maybe the best thing for you, if you are worried about work and what not, is to study in the UK, but also study abroad in China for two years. You can get relatively good in two years if you work hard. And then go back and finish your studies in the UK. If you did not really enjoy China so much and don't feel like pursuing work in Asia, then you could probably find work in the UK. If you have a great time in China, and want to go back, you could go to study again or perhaps do graduate work ina Chinese university. Just ideas though.

[geraldc]

SOAS is a very good university, the Times ranked it as the best university to study in, in their survey a couple of years ago. It's relatively small and has a pretty friendly atmosphere.

The courses are modular, so you can take other languages/dialects during your time there. The teaching staff have a reputation for being a bit "marxist", especially those in the economics dept.

The disadvantages of SOAS, are things like its lack of non academic facilities etc, it just has one student union bar, compared to UCL's dozen or so. It doesn't have its own gym and has to use ULU's etc. However its central location does make it ideal for using ULU etc.

Degrees aren't vocational, they're academic. If you look at graduate employers, most will just ask for a degree, rather than a degree in a specific subject.

If you're looking to work in the UK, a degree from SOAS will be worth a lot more than a degree from a Chinese university.

[PaoYu]

This forum must have some sort of time delay in posting. Thanks to the moderater, anyway:roll:

Or have you considered studying in Taiwan or HK? There you might be able to combine education in a more developed setting but still keep up your Chinese. (Yes I do know it's Cantonese in HK).

I'd thought about that. I am not worried about studying in a "developed" setting, to be honest, but again I'm not sure how a degree from either Taiwan or Hong Kong would stand up versus a degree from London. (This is purely an assumption - I am basing my opinion of that entirely on the world university rankings and not personal experience.) Moreover, how different would it be from "putongua" the Beijing dialect?

I'm guessing that your Chinese wouldn't be good enough to study at the university level in China

I cannot speak much Chinese yet! Whatever option I choose to take it's going to have to be ab initio.

In general, university name is a good thing in Asia. If you go to a world famous school, it will open the doors for entry into big name companeis as well. Skill and talent matter of coruse, but Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, Yale...they are all names that draw attention, especially to Intl. companies.

Yes, I'd also come to this conclusion. But I have received very mixed feelings from my Asian friends. Some of them knew of SOAS and were very impressed; others had heard of "London University" (well, who hasn't?), which is in itself fallacious; and others didn't seem to respect it atall, "I only know Oxford and Cambridge. They are best". But I'm thinking (hoping) that employers in China, and the like, will be slightly more knowledgable, right?

I don't know that having a BA in Chinese is going to help with employment at all. So you can speak Chinese and English...what else can you do? I guess if you want to work in translation that would be helpful. If you want to work in a Chinese-speaking country, *normally* you need to be able to speak and understand Chinese, and you also need a skill. So it might be a good idea to study two subjects, one you really love, like Chinese, and then perhaps economics, engineering, or some type of practical studies.

Good point; I pondered this long and hard. I'll tell you the conclusion I came to: Basically, at SOAS, it is very academic. It is also really bloody hard. Coming out with a good degree classification should prove "teachability" and the like to future employers. If I can learn Chinese, then what can't I do? (Admittedly I can see this carrying significantly less weight to a forum full of multilingual Chinese speakers). Most jobs don't require a specific degree in anything. If I do decide that I want to be an economist, lawyer, philosopher or whatever, I can always do a masters conversion degree (options for doing this in China?). Also, doing a dual subject degree I would come out with significantly less depth in my Chinese skills.

My career aspirations are rather foggy; however, I do have one thing in mind: Diplomacy. From what I can gather a degree in an Oriental language is perfect for getting into this kind of work.

The courses are modular, so you can take other languages/dialects during your time there. The teaching staff have a reputation for being a bit "marxist", especially those in the economics dept.

Haha. Yes, apparently it is the most left university in the country!

The disadvantages of SOAS, are things like its lack of non academic facilities etc, it just has one student union bar, compared to UCL's dozen or so. It doesn't have its own gym and has to use ULU's etc. However its central location does make it ideal for using ULU etc.

Yeah that is a good point. Although, like you say, its students can use UL facilities. If I decide to go, I will be staying in "Dinwiddy" house; know anything about that? It seems quite nice.

Well, this was a long and rambling post going nowhere in particular. Thanks very much for your replies. If anyone has more to add, do feel free!

[adrianlondon]

I live virtually next to SOAS and considered doing a (non degree) Mandarin course there. In the end, by coincidence I made a new Taiwanese friend who was teaching Mandarin at SOAS, so I paid him to teach me privately instead.

SOAS has a fantastic reputation. However, it depends - as always - on why you're learning. If you think a good-name university will help with your career then study at SOAS; no "teaching Chinese as a foreign language" course in China will cut it. Also, the history and culture being taught in SOAS will be much better and away from the censorsh*cough* guidance of the Chinese government.

Having said that, it's so so so much cheaper to study and live in China than SOAS and central London.

[Shadowdh]

Hi there, I looked at SOAS as I know a couple of teachers there... (not teaching Chinese but in other areas)... and it does have a decent rep, however their prices are horrendous and after some looking around I found that the Uni of Westminster has comparable levels of teaching and offers better value, so I started there... it is good and the teachers work you hard, but thats good too... as for London vs China for a degree, you are better off with the London degree imho as its far more sellable... but I gather that you should try to get to China as much as poss as well... try for the best of both worlds... also there are many Chinese students here learning English that you can meet with to exchange language tuition and that helps loads...

[geraldc]

Regarding cost of degrees, I think the cost of SOAS vs Westminster will be roughly the same, just differences in the top up charges etc (although I don't know what they'd charge non EU students).

A major factor is who you'll be going to class with, SOAS has a much better reputation than Westminster (although I know nothing of Westminsters Chinese degrees), and will have higher entry grades, so the students you'll be studying with should be more academically gifted, giving you more incentive and competition. If you go to study in China, you could well be studying with Koreans putting off military service, Japanese girls seeing the world, or overseas Chinese on a gap year, i.e. not the most motivated students in the world...

With the year of study in the UK before heading out to China, at least you'll land on your feet there, and have a basic grounding in Chinese.

When considering universities look at factors such as drop out rates etc.

SOAS was set up to train people for careers in the FCO, so it does have a good reputation with the civil service.

I think with SOAS's module system, it's pretty good if you want to explore your options, i.e you can study a bit of philosophy, or economics or law (BTW if you want to be an economist, you really need economics and maths, forget about learning languages).

If you want a "good" job in China, most likely you'll go out as an expat, and get recruited in the west. So degrees from a western Uni will be more attractive to a western employer.

[PaoYu]

Geraldc: That was a good and informative post; although I'm not sure I understood the last sentence. Do you mean Western employers in China are more likely to employ me?

With Chinese at SOAS I won't get any free module options until the 3rd and 4th year; at which point I'll have to seriously start thinking about what I want to do after my degree, so perhaps I can try some things out then.

I was considering doing Chinese with Economics at one point, but my heart really wasn't in it. I want to do Chinese! Im just slightly worried about career options after my degree as it doesn't directly lead into anything (except translation, of course, which I'm not particularly interested in as a career).

I'd like to get over to China as much as possible. Ideally before my degree starts but after I finish college; so that's roughly June (ish, can be earlier) ~September. Now, while I can probably raise the cash to get over to China and perhaps travel a bit, I will be losing out on valuable "work like hell before uni starts to ease the debts" time. Is there any realistic way of a non-graduate making money over there? I mean, I wouldn't have to be making serious profit or anything (infact not making too much of a loss would be perfectly acceptable), but I'd need some form of justifying going over there. Any ideas?

Well, thanks again for the replies. Good stuff.

[novemberfog]

Good point; I pondered this long and hard. I'll tell you the conclusion I came to: Basically, at SOAS, it is very academic. It is also really bloody hard. Coming out with a good degree classification should prove "teachability" and the like to future employers. If I can learn Chinese, then what can't I do? (Admittedly I can see this carrying significantly less weight to a forum full of multilingual Chinese speakers). Most jobs don't require a specific degree in anything. If I do decide that I want to be an economist, lawyer, philosopher or whatever, I can always do a masters conversion degree (options for doing this in China?). Also, doing a dual subject degree I would come out with significantly less depth in my Chinese skills.

My career aspirations are rather foggy; however, I do have one thing in mind: Diplomacy. From what I can gather a degree in an Oriental language is perfect for getting into this kind of work.

If that is what you want to do, then yes, I agree, your degree has very little weight at all. What will matter are your personal networks and connections with others. The name of the school will also be probably important when building such networks. But you still need Chinese skills, so take advantage of study abroad and what not. And good luck! If you ever become an ambassador, do please arrange for me to attend one of the parties at the UK embassy in Tokyo! I would love to meet people and maybe even get a chance to live in the UK for a few years on a guest Visa.

However, not all employers view things the same. So if you go for a job in a technology sector, your Chinese degree might not be viewed so well compared to people with IT degrees. Not all sectors are the same. What is in common though is that if you have a strong social network, you will be okay.

I seriously think you cannot go wrong studying Chinese, and taking a minor/certificate course in some sort of business subject. At least take a few practical courses, for backup. But like I said before, what you make of your time in school is all up to you. If you make good networks, you will be fine. If you only study and have nothing else, you will probably have trouble finding work.

[novemberfog]

Also, doing a dual subject degree I would come out with significantly less depth in my Chinese skills.

Again, this depends entirely on what you do with your time at the University. You can focus your thesis and papers on ecnomics in China, and you would have two birds with one stone. Whatever you do, don't limit your options just because of titles. Everything has grey areas, free areas....use that to your advantage.

[Lu]

If your choice is between getting a BA at a Chinese uni or one from SOAS, by all means, go to SOAS. Studying in China is great for learning the language, but at SOAS you would learn much more than just language, you'd get history, culture, linguistics, all taught in an academic fashion. Assuming you don't know (much) Chinese now, any course at a Chinese uni will be too hard, so you can only take language courses, and 3 years of Chinese is just worth much less than a BA from SOAS.

Besides, you can still go to China after going to SOAS, and with what you've learned there make much more of a stay in China.

[Shadowdh]

Regarding cost of degrees, I think the cost of SOAS vs Westminster will be roughly the same, just differences in the top up charges etc (although I don't know what they'd charge non EU students).

A major factor is who you'll be going to class with, SOAS has a much better reputation than Westminster (although I know nothing of Westminsters Chinese degrees), and will have higher entry grades, so the students you'll be studying with should be more academically gifted, giving you more incentive and competition. If you go to study in China, you could well be studying with Koreans putting off military service, Japanese girls seeing the world, or overseas Chinese on a gap year, i.e. not the most motivated students in the world...

Hi Gerald... So I thought too but after doing some sniffing around I found that SOAS was about two thirds as much again (if not more) in fees and this is for a "home" student (of which I am) and that in recent years they have suffered some in the rep stakes as a few people I talked to pointed out... It was my first choice when looking to study Chinese at degree level but after a couple of people mentioned UOW I looked into it and I am very happy with the level of degree and teaching thus far... as far as entry grades goes.. if you have the money you have the entry...

[PaoYu]

To Shadowdh:

Do Westminster offer BA Chinese as a single subject? Here is a list of all higher education institutions offering Chinese in the UK (2006): http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsrun/search/search/StateId/RYcMooNaK4CDuSLJtmC7NJoITJ6IA-U6xy/HAHTpage/search.HsKeywordSuggestion.whereNext?query=111&word=CHINESE&single=N .

SOAS charges the same as any other university in regards to top-up fees. However, living in the centre of London is bloody expensive - that goes without saying! Although you do get an extra £1,600 per year in if you're living in London. I am, however, taking it as a given that i'm going to have lots of debt. That, sadly, is inescapable.

as far as entry grades goes.. if you have the money you have the entry...

Are we both talking about undergraduate degrees here? If we are, then this is utterly untrue! In the U.K. money catagorically cannot get you into university! It is purely on merit (and possibly something else that I don't know about: I have neither money nor merit!).

I am not sure what the statistics are for Chinese (which must surely be lower), but I do know that the BA Japanese applicant rate/acceptance rate is 11:1.

I don't mean to disregard your opinion; infact I am interested to hear more, but could you back it up with some concrete reasons? Why has it suffered in the rep stakes? etc. etc. etc.

NB. There seems to be some *severe* delay between when I post something and when it shows up on the forum. Any ideas about that?

[dougm24]

Although studying Chinese in China is obviously the best place to go, if you're looking for a reputable degree I wouldn't say that studying at SOAS would necessarily make your language any worse.

I studied Chinese at Edinburgh from 2004, and only after the first year went to China. Although starting off in China will give you exposure to day to day language, the main advantage of starting abroad is that I think getting taught the basics by teachers that are all able to speak English is that it gives you a good foundation and more complex grammar will be explained more easily. After half a year in the UK and half a year in China, I managed to get a respectable score in the HSK and can hold a conversation reasonably in Chinese, I doubt it would have been much better if the whole year was spent in China.

Doug

[mlomker]

From what I've read, the study materials at Western schools are superior but the immersion factor of being in China makes a big difference in fluency. I also don't see a problem with having Koreans around--your only common language is going to be Mandarin and there will be at least a few that are motivated enough to speak with you.

If you have the financial capability then I'd recommend going to school in England and taking whatever 'study abroad' option that they might offer as a part of the program.

I've seen some Chinese colleges require HSK 3 for entrance into a bachelor's program, but I'd imagine you could find some that require none. 3 isn't all that high, anyway...I'd imagine that a 3 month cram session (first year Chinese) would be adequate to make the mark.

The primary advantages of studying in China is that it is quite nearly 'free'. $2k/yr for tuition (which could be zero if you apply for a Chinese government scholorship) beats the heck out of whatever your school in England will be charging you.

Personally, I took the inexpensive bachelors approach and will pursue a Masters with more recognition. Everyone has a bachelors degree these days...

[mrtoga]

I just don't understand the logic of studying for a language degree abroad, to be honest. Its not like Maths or Science. If you want to learn a language and a culture, go to a country where it is spoken. If you can pass Level 10 of the HSK after living and studying in China for 3-4 years that is going to turn the head of most (sensible) employers. You will not do that studying 3-4 years in London, unless you are a linguistic genius.

OK so you may be a bit foggy on the historical side - is that going to bother an employer? Is anyone seriously suggesting that you cannot study Chinese history in China anyway?

Plus as you mentioned it will actually cost you more even with free tuition as you will be living in London. For me, a no-brainer.......

[Shadowdh]

Do Westminster offer BA Chinese as a single subject? Here is a list of all higher education institutions offering Chinese in the UK (2006):

To be honest I am not sure, they didnt in 2005 (but did in 2004) as they were trying a new system of combined degrees... (to be honest further it has annoyed me that they did this)

SOAS charges the same as any other university in regards to top-up fees. However, living in the centre of London is bloody expensive - that goes without saying! Although you do get an extra £1,600 per year in if you're living in London. I am, however, taking it as a given that i'm going to have lots of debt. That, sadly, is inescapable.

I cant say what they charge now as I havent looked but when I looked into it SOAS was charging just over £2000 and UOW just under £1200 so that was quite a big diff, especially as I have to pay myself... I live in Greenwich and its not too bad but then my wife works in an investment bank and we bought when housing was not that expensive (compared to now)... It is truly sad that students will now have to face a mountain of debt...

Are we both talking about undergraduate degrees here? If we are, then this is utterly untrue! In the U.K. money catagorically cannot get you into university! It is purely on merit (and possibly something else that I don't know about: I have neither money nor merit!).

Yep, I know guys who really dont have the merit but had the money (and this is not just with overseas students but home too) and thus got places... money talks and bs walks...

I am not sure what the statistics are for Chinese (which must surely be lower), but I do know that the BA Japanese applicant rate/acceptance rate is 11:1.

Have no idea here either but I do know that SOAS was over subscribed and we were close to the limit if not over, I have a (as yet unconfirmed) feeling that unis will oversubscribe on courses like these as there is a fairly large drop out rate quite early on... I know thats the case for my course which is nearly half the class size it was at the start...

I don't mean to disregard your opinion; infact I am interested to hear more, but could you back it up with some concrete reasons? Why has it suffered in the rep stakes? etc. etc. etc.

Disregard away... no harm no foul... I have no concrete reasoning behind what I have heard, just that they used to be the top in the country with a very high rep, however according to a couple of dubious looking chaps () they have recently not been teaching to as high a standard, they didnt elaborate as to why and I didnt ask but will next time I see them... this is mostly stuff I found out through asking friends and friends friends when I decided to start a degree in Chinese... it may be that they didnt get on with the teachers or some other reason...

NB. There seems to be some *severe* delay between when I post something and when it shows up on the forum. Any ideas about that?

Sorry cant help there...

[geraldc]

With SOAS you spend your second year abroad at Beijing Normal university, so you do get the fully immersive language experience.

New members may find it a takes a while for their posts to appear, as sometimes their posts are held for moderation, it may seem harsh, but you have to agree the boards are remarkably spam free

Western employers in China aren't going to employ a fresh graduate. They're more likely to transfer over someone from one of their European or US operations. Most employers operate in English as it is. You only need high level Chinese skills if you want to be an interpreter. Most expats have very limited Chinese skills, as if they wanted someone who could speak Chinese they could hire a local at local rates. The expats are there for the skills they bring with them, ie. the skills they developed in the West.

Top companies are very selective in which Universities they recruit from. They do reject applicants based on what universities they go to. If you go to a Top 10 or Russell Group university, so much the better. Although all university degrees are supposed to be equal, in real life, you'll find they're really not. Universities compete for funding based on their research rating. Top departments are rated 5 star, and universities compete on the number of 5 star departments they have.

SOAS is rated the 4th best uni in the UK by the Guardian, and Westminister is 55th...

I think your best option is get the degree in the UK. Then do post grad in China if you're really interested.