Chinese degree -- in the U.K.

[Shadowdh]

SOAS is rated the 4th best uni in the UK by the Guardian, and Westminister is 55th...

well then it must be true if its in the guardian...

[geraldc]

It's worse news in the Sunday Times league. 21st for SOAS, 93rd for Westminster.

However I cannot stress enough that with University choices, it is YOUR choice.

[rose~]

I totally agree with what GeraldC says, foreign employers here would not send over a fresh grad. Foreigners here are mainly high level management. To take that route means going to the best University you can, and that will not be one in Mainland China.

It is worth thinking about, why would an employer here employ you as a foreigner at all?

It certainly will not be for language skills, with the one exception of translation where a native English speaker is needed. The job market here is HIGHLY competitive, here in Shanghai a fresh grad will start on about 4/5000, up to 10,000 which would be very high, this grad will most likely speak excellent English, obviously their Chinese is native-level, and their skills set is in whatever their degree was in (i.e., aside from languages, they have another major skills set). What does a foreigner, for whom they will have to go through the hassle of finding a work permit/visa, have to offer? Native level English. OK. But their Chinese is not fluent, they want more than 5000 yuan month, and they only have language skills unlike the Shanghainese grads who are offering much more. This is all worth thinking about. I am working here in Shanghai, and the only reason I have my job is becasue I am a native speaker of English. Otherwise I would not have stood a chance in this market.

So what I am saying is, is that by studying in China, you would undoubtedly get higher level of Chinese. But the Chinese employer doesn't weant that, they want a foreign name University grad. They want Yale or Oxford or University of London (SOAS). My colleagues here, ALL have degrees from overseas. The Chinese ones, I mean. In fact, I would go as far as to say there is a glass ceiling for those who do not have an overseas degree, with the exception of Beijing University, Qinghua or Fudan graduates.

It seems everyone on this thread can agree that your Chinese would be more fluent if you did a degree in China. But you have to factor in how employers will view this degree, and the fact that by not studying in the UK you would be turning down a chance that hundreds of thousands of people here in China literally dream of. To study in one of the best Universities in the world.

OK, here is another reason to study in the UK: SUPPORT.

You will have a myriad of support mechanisms available to you in the UK through the Student's Union, counselling, academic support, funds available for hardship...The support of your freinds and family who I am assuming are in the UK, student loans from the government, and extra loans should you need it. I hope you never need it, but to be honest most people I knew at Uni used these services at some point (I don't mean counselling, the other stuff).

Paoyu, the thing I said about studying in HK or Taiwan, I meant developed academically. I meant that if you were determined to study in a Chinese-language setting, why not consider Taiwan as its Universities, particularly National Taiwan University, are more developed by light years than any Mainland ones. And there are some good scholarsips to study there.

At the end of the day it is your decision. I know its a difficult one, and I had the same situation as you....at the time, I felt the same as whoever it was that just said, @why the hell study Chinese in the UK?!". Now I feel differently...

Also, you have time between now and September...how about coming out to China now and learning till then?

[Shadowdh]

Geraldc... totally agree with that..

Rose... great points made... especially the last...

also dont forget that most Chinese degrees will offer the year abroad thing but if you cant go for the year (like me, family committments etc) then go when you can to reinforce...

[PaoYu]

Excellent post, Rose.

I finish college in May/June time, then of course have until September before university starts. I am very seriously thinking about what you suggested: going to China for a couple of months and learning as much as I can. There is a slight glitch, however, in that the time after finishing college but before starting university I have to earn as much money as possible. Yep, full time work in Macdonald's, Sainsbury's or whatever. In terms of (i) money spent getting over there/living, and (ii) lost earning opportunities in England, I'm not sure I can justify it. If anyone wants to offer advice on that (although I can't see it being very viable) then go right ahead! Or should I post in the "living" forum? I did, here is the thread.

Anyhoo, thanks alot guys.

[kashiya]

Ok, so maybe you could help me as well

The thing is that I want to do East Asian Studies (with Chinese, coz there is also usually an option with Japanese). I'd like to work in future in some NGO or UNO or in an another international organisation, but I guess a job in a company would also do...

I didn't want to go to Oxbridge, coz I didn't want to learn plain Sinology, as I'm mainly interested in current affairs, politics, human rights, international relations and I don't like history, or literature that much. SOAS was also out of question, coz I don't like London - it's way too big for me... So I've a place at Nottingham for Contemporary European Studies and Chinese Studies.

But I have the possibility to apply to Germany. I'm mainly thinking about Ruhr-Uni Bochum or Heidelberg, as those are the best two Unis for East Asia. Both offer East Asian Studies.

What do you think would be better? UK or Germany? I have completely no clue what to do, but maybe you know what would be better regarded in future a degree from UK or Germany? How about Chinese at Notts you think it's better than that in Heidelberg or Bochum?

(Btw. I'm neither British nor German - I come from Poland)

[gato]

I'm mainly interested in current affairs, politics, human rights, international relations and I don't like history, or literature that much.

A little off topic, but a good knowledge of history is very important to the areas you said you are interested in. What if a government spokesperson gives a historical reason for the occurance of human rights abuses. If you know your history, you might be able to refute this abuse of history. But if you don't, you might have to make do by repeating some slogans.

[kashiya]

I guess it wil be unovoidable to deal with history... But that's ok. Only the way they deal with it in Oxbridge is too much for me. I wouldn't also want to deal more with it than necessary, coz there are always parts of history which are not that relevant to the current situation (or at least it was always like this when I was still having history at school)

[mrtoga]

I have to disagree with the majority of posters on this thread.......

Yes the main companies are taking graduates from universities abroad, but there is a very good reason for that - there are very few western students studying degrees in universities here in China.

I still maintain that studying a language in a country / environment in which you are not surrounded by that language everyday is not sensible. It is like learning to swim laying on a table in your kitchen. You can make all the strokes, but it is going to be a very inefficient and unnatural way of learning. Do international companies really just want to see a certificate that says you studied, rather than a certificate that says you have concrete ability in the language (like the HSK)? Can someone explain that logic to me?

Personally, I studied Business Studies & Economics at university and then went abroad to learn a language, picking it up in a shorter time than it would have taken me at a university. I was on the JET programme in Japan, and I met many graduates of Japanese at British universities working as CIRs there. Many of them really struggled - they had spent three / four years of their lives studying Japanese but were less fluent than some English teachers that had spent a year in Japan. But of course they had their graduation certificate

There may be something in this certificate from SOAS / Nottingham unlocking doors to employment theory, but I believe that at the end of the day ability will shine through. If you want to work here in China, a good understanding of the actual situation here will help both you and the company you work for. Surely you will develop this understanding more fully by actually living in the society here.

[geraldc]

I think we're talking at crossed purposes here. A degree in Chinese isn't vocational, it's academic. It's designed to show employers you know how to study, and how to use your brain. If it was vocational, they'd have dropped classical Chinese elements of the course years ago.

If you want to learn to speak Chinese, then going to China to learn, is probably the better option, but if you want to study Chinese and leave as many options open as possible for once you graduate, then studying for a degree in Chinese at a western university will be the better option.

[mrtoga]

It is possible to study the classical elements here in China as well though. I would have thought a major portion of the course in the UK is focused on studying to speak / read the modern language. As an academic exercise to see how much Chinese you can learn in a foreign environment it may have some merit, but ultimately it seems rather pointless.

Additionally, it is much easier to study classical Chinese once you have a solid grip of modern Chinese. To study the classical without a good understanding of the modern seems like putting the cart in front of the horse to me.

At the end of the day I think I would rather initially struggle to get a good job, then excel in it, than find a good job immediately and then struggle to live up to the expectations. Still, I guess there are two schools of thought on this

[yorkie_bear]

Hallo

I hope I can also add some info on this. I studied at SOAS- it's going to get complicated so do bear with me! This also happened quite a while ago but I'd be surprised if it has changed all that much.

Actually I took a year out in China when I was 18 and went to Beijing Language Institute (called sthg different now right?) and my Chinese came up to a pretty good level. (OK, I'm also a BBC so I had a few advantages). Then I went to LSE for a year, hated it, and changed to SOAS for a degree in Chinese and Economics. I went straight into the second year, the only thing being the need to catch up on some basic classical chinese stuff. The second year is at Beijing Normal University. Err, at the beginning, the other students couldn't really say much in Chinese! The 2nd year was the same for all students regardless of a joint degree or full degree. And then the third and fourth years were back in London. If you did a full Chinese degree then it was pretty full on - lot of classical stuff mixed with the modern. With a joint degree you could have a bit of fun doing a sideline in e.g. the economy of Korea...

Also, things seemed pretty flexible in SOAS. People were constantly chopping and changing from joint/single degrees, or taking additional years out in China.

I have to say, I really loved SOAS. It's a fantastic university where you could meet students studying African drumming or Turkish law or Japanese history or.... and many of the students themselves come from Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Very diverse. The students tend to be a bit more maturer than the usual fresh out of schoolers - but I reckon that makes things even more interesting. The library and teaching are excellent, there are unusual extracurricular activities and, yes there's only one pub, but it's a great one! Anyhow ULU was just round the corner.

I wouldn't bother going to China for the summer before you start - you'll be starting at the same level as everyone else in the first year. Best time to extend any stay in China is probably between the 2nd and 3rd years.

hope it helps.

[JamesGoff]

hey kashiya

well , i recommened NOttingham to you , i currently study here, and im on a course Management with Chinese Studies .... i really enjoy the chinese studies the academics seem to be very good and realy enjoy there stuff.

have you had a look at Nottinghams Ningbo Campus ..... they offer a very interseting MA in Chinese Studies which is more about current affairs etc than traditional history/sinology

worth checking out , any questions about it just write back

xx

[roddy]

I knew about the Nottingham campus there, but didn't realise they would offer that kind of course. Could be the best of both worlds - you'll get a degree from a UK university, with the Chinese immersion for the language (along with academic language training, presumably).

Here's an MA program. Very interesting.

James - do you know anyone studying Chinese in Ningbo with Nottingham? And could UK funding be used in Ningbo?

[kashiya]

JamesGoff! Wow! At last I meat someone from Notts, who is doing Chinese Studies! Can you tell me something more about the course? How many language hours are there per week? Can you actually acquire a decent command of Chinese? Which year are you in? Can the degree that you get in Notts compete with SOAS, or is it far behind?

I've thought about Ningbo... I wrote them an email asking several questions, but I've never received a reply It’s also a bit more expensive than UK and UK is already not that cheap for me (especially as I plan to stay for a very very long time at the university: BA -> MA -> PhD)…

[JamesGoff]

wow thats alot of questions....

well nottingham usualy ranks higher than SOAS ... but both very good universities. I think SOAS may have the edge when it comes to Chinese Studies... but that isnt really an option for you .

Well nottingham is a lovely place and as with most good universities you get out what you put in. ( i think what seperates the the best universities is not facilities or teaching ... but how motivated the students are .....the more motivated go to the better universities......and so on)

i dont know how good far good you will be after your time , depends on the course ... with me mandarin is only 1/6 of my course and by the end i will have a level of post A-Level ( but its a level system so you can skip them if you do intensive chinese study in china over the summer for example...what im doing this summer ..but not skipping a level just dont tell my tutor!.

well as far as the MA is concerned ...

Rody , i dont really knwo what you mean by UK funding- if you live in the UK i 'think' you can study there for UK prices ( Circa £1000 per annum) but you can enrol in teh main uni and take 2nd year no extra cost .

I agree with you , i think studying there wound be really good - living in china but being taught as if you were in the UK ( i know my couse is identicle with lectures going back and forth to teach/ do research there

I actually sat in my 1st year mandarin class with 2 spanish teachers who were going over to teach spanish .... and a few friends of mine went there for a semester last year.. they thought it was really good.

kashiya - as you come from POland dont you get cheaper rates as Poland is part of the EU ?? i dont really know .....

also even though i think nottingham is amazing have you looked at edinburgh they offer a good chinese course, well as with all university choices its up to you really , wherever you fell best suited ..

if you have anymore questions just let me know

James Goff

x

[kashiya]

Thank's for your reply

Yeah, the fees are cheaper for me, but still compared to the German Unis it is expensive, as in Germany there are no tutition fees (yet).

Ah... It's quite complicated with me, coz I first applied for PPE or Philosophy with Politics, but than decided I'd rather learn Chinese on a degree course (coz I previously intended to learn Chinese outside the uni), so I declined my offers and applied to Notts through Extra. I could of course reapply next year, but I guess it doesn't make much sense as I'm not sure whether I could get a much better course than at Notts (excluding SOAS and Oxbridge). The problem with Notts is that I'm not sure whether I should go there or to the best German uni, which is Heidelberg... I'm not sure which degree is better: that from Notts or that from Heidelberg...

[gato]

English is likely to be more important than German for someone working internationally. You would also be improving your English to a university level by going to a British school. I think that should tip the scale in favor of the UK.

[JamesGoff]

I must agree with Gato

BEing in the UK will help your english ( not that i think u nedd much of it)

On the international issues British Universities are really well respected , with my experiance this is true especially in asia and USA, and Nottingham is well known in China and is a very popular UNiversity for Chinese students , i think NOttingham as 1000 CHinese Students which is quite a sizable minority.

[kashiya]

You would also be improving your English to a university level by going to a British school.

But than, if I go to Germany I'll improve my German lol!

On the international issues British Universities are really well respected , with my experiance this is true especially in asia and USA, and Nottingham is well known in China and is a very popular UNiversity for Chinese students , i think NOttingham as 1000 CHinese Students which is quite a sizable minority.

Yeah, you may be right that Notts will be better known in CHina than a German uni...

Oh btw. do you know anything about the Universitas 21? Is there a possibility to go eg. to Hong Kong or Peking (those two unis are in universitas 21) for a year (eg. the 2nd year) and continue the education for one year there?