Like Living in a Communist/Fascist Country?

[HashiriKata]

Do you think your status/role there supports the status quo or a change to something better?

Even if you wanted to support the status quo, are you able to hold back anything from changing? As for better (or worse), it's a matter of judgement.

What can be said is regardless of whatever we do or want, China (like many other countries) is Westernizing itself, and even China itself DOES NOT have a say in this.

Now if I'm allowed to express a personal judgement, I must say this is truly sad, the destructive force of Western civilization. It's ironic that we, the products of the West, always advocate "freedom"!!!

[mind_wander]

Ord100,

I have to agree about how you are feeling about current conditions about America. Although, the president emphasizes on the "war on terrorism", as a joke when he can change his topic to "War on social economic issues". If he wanted to be elected again, he win more votes, yes, he can change any issue right back to the terrorism must be shutdown into a more democracy society.

Here is the question for you, if Bush would emphasize more on "War on social economic issues", would you most likely to leave the US or stay; understandable isn't gonna happen.

Also, I am happy that the President of China came here in the US, explaining the true conditions about the Chinese people real income. It shows that the US is actually wrong about China the whole time, about they are rich in glory, but most of the population is still poor and visible. The Chinese people in China is awaiting for America to create more new things, and don't hesitate to spend money.

[stephanhodges]

I would like to arrange to be buried in Chicago, though, so I can keep on voting.

LOL!

Actually, I've always been amazed that dead people vote democratic in such large numbers. I'd think that they would become much more conservative and "hard" lined in their outlook, with a pretty "inflexible" viewpoint.

[wushijiao]

I think the state of American democracy isn’t all that bad. Bush is down in the polls. Republicans are struggling. The press found there cojones after the few years after 9/11 timidity. The consensus is that the current way of doing things has been a failure.

If you are depressed about the US, fight for your freedom. Write letters to politicians. Write letters to newspapers. Give money to organizations and candidates that are worth the money. Vote.

As far as China, it is slightly repressive authoritarian oligarchy, I’d say, but hardly “Communist”, in the Stalinistic sense. It might be fascist, if one defines fascism as collusion between the state and industry without representative democracy. Still, it can’t compare with the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam...etc.

I think Americans conceive of China as an efficient Nazi-style regime, with all Chinese people desperately yearning for Western-style freedom amongst the odious oppression. As long as the press is going to create unfair stereotypes, I might as well create my unfair stereotype: China is more like a dozen densely populated Arkansas’s, with vast swaths of poverty, bumpkinish ignorance, and self-grown brutality, rivaling anything in the Appalachians. And yet, like the Appalachians, there is a down home goodness, hospitality, innocence, and way of life in that part of the country that is quickly disappearing. Bordering that, are some of the most developing, stylish, futuristic, materialistic, metropolises on the planet.

The elephant in the room, at the moment, is that most urban educated Chinese agree that democracy is the most ideal form of government, and yet they know that it is probably unworkable at this present state. This is due to:

A) the lack of education among the populace

B) the lack of a developed, sophisticated economy, and thus competing interests, in most of the country.

C) The lack of a free press

D) The lack of any opposition parties or major opposition organizations (ie. the Catholic church in Poland)

E) The fact that a whole generation of people have been through an education system that never prepared them to unemotionally analyze policies, or more important, take an active interest in politics. That is to say, the whole system is meant to perpetuate apathy.

F) 5,000 years of (selectively taught) history that highlight the importance of strong authoritarian leaders in making historical progress

G) GDP growth of 9% a year, which helps the current political party (the CCP). In other words, you don’t “kick out the bums” until they start to screw things up, and start hurting you in your wallet.

H) the fact that almost everyone knows someone, if not a family member, who works for the government, and thus would have something to lose if the current system collapsed.

And so on. I’m sorry if I offended anyone in this post. I just wrote this on a whim.

[mind_wander]

I am not offended by your post, because I want to know the current state both bad/good things about China. There are alot of things to being improve in America as well, since the history isn't far past China's 5,000 history. Therefore, there are so many loopholes in the American policies.

Reasons for, more people willing to take the risk to smuggle in the borders between Mexico and the US. This is becoming a big issue, if someone who want to live in a society much better than their current residence I really don't mind. However, they should follow the US laws, yes this would leads to discrimination and unfair freedom of opporutunity this great nation speaks of. Since, coming into a country illegally will result to deportation. How I see it, everyone is trying to make a living, no matter what color the person is. This fear brings in America about many other foreigners taking jobs away from legalized Americans is considered unfair and unjustice. As for me, I was not thinking about this in the American perspective because everyone try to find a better life here in the US.

[Lugubert]

If, for some inconceivable reason, I would have to move from Sweden to either the USA or PRC, I'd choose the PRC without losing a second for deliberations. I haven't been to East Asia (yet), but I was in Florida for a week and in India for a month, and I felt more safe being the only non-brown person in a Delhi alley at night than in an almost empty Florida main street in broad daylight. And that US week was even before Dubya!

What I read in the papers and am told by co-students of Chinese at the university just enhances that view. In the USofA, I would be scared all the time that somebody might think that I am a Muslim and thus shoot me.

You think this is a ridiculous statement? Then say so to the relatives of the Sikh guy who was murdered by an American who thought that this was a patriotic act. And I come from a predominantly Christian country. Islam has much more in common with Christianity than Sikhism, which emerged as a reaction to Islam. Or I might be accused of owning WMD's. How could I prove the opposite, especially if a CIA agent or a White House rep has ever smelled the Swedish fermented herring ("surströmming")?

Unfortunately, I will be too old to take advantage of the situation when I have learned enough Chinese, and scientific and financial superpower China buys the financially and morally bankrupt US a few years from now. In the meantime, I just enjoy learning.

[ord100]

“China is a slightly repressive authoritarian oligarchy”

Wushijiao: Very Thoughtful Post. Thanks. That definition sounds like the USA. Really.

Yes: I am a libertarian - not a democrat or republican (good observation).

I think I would like to live in China and may well move there for a few years. Although, after each trip there, part of me still revolts at the government.

[Shadowdh]

Lugubert that is indeed a ridiculous statement unless stupidity and insanity are only American afflictions... but as far as I know these afflictions dont have any prejudices or discrmination...

[HashiriKata]

Lugubert that is indeed a ridiculous statement unless stupidity and insanity are only American afflictions... but as far as I know these afflictions dont have any prejudices or discrmination...

But I think many American would consider even stupidity and insanity in the USA are superior to those in other countries. No?

[Shadowdh]

:mrgreen:

I would not argue that point...

:mrgreen:

[geraldc]

I'd just like to point out that China and the US (and infact every country on the globe) has their fair share of geniuses, idiots and normal people.

People are people, and irrespective of what method of government we grew up under, we all have more similarities than differences. When people on this board start ranking countries in terms of "intelligence" etc things are only going to get messy...

[wushijiao]

I'd just like to point out that China and the US (and infact every country on the globe) has their fair share of geniuses, idiots and normal people.

If that was directed at me, I'd just like to clarify that I meant "ignorant", not intelligent. I would never want to imply that one race or nationality of people is smarter than any other.

I do, however, think that people can talk in terms of ignorance, and education systems that attempt to perpetuate ignorance. In another post, I discussed the recent American attempt by the Bush administration to decrease the subjects such as liberal arts, music, art, history, PE...etc, and replace it with a test based system. From one point of view, the goal is simply to create a globally competitive workforce. Yet other people have criticized the Bush administration for creating a workforce that is just smart enough to do remedial tasks, but not critical enough to question the whole nature of the system. For better or for worse, this coincides with the conservative attack on academia in the US. So, I wouldn’t want to leave the impression that I was solely picking on China.

Let me just say two things. First, nowhere, as far as I know, do any high school students in China have to write research papers or critically analyze and disagree with texts. The ability to collect information from various sources and then form opinions is something that can be taught and learned, but it has not been systematically put into the national education system’s curriculum as far as I know. I think many foreigners who have taught in China would agree that critical thinking skills are generally lacking among college students. The same teachers also find that the same students kick ass at figuring out test structures, and figuring out how to efficiently and cleverly beat the test. It’s a matter of what one has practiced for over a decade of learning. To be fair, I think China also had to prioritize and concentrate its money on less airy-fairy things, like the sciences, math, engineering...etc.

Second, huge amounts of people, especially from the countryside, have received very minimal levels of education. Reading, writing, debating…etc, all of this is the foundation of democracy. I read somewhere (correct me if I’m wrong) that about 5% of people in rural areas of college education levels or above. If the majority of the country still comes from rural areas, that means the total level of people who should form the bulk of a educated middle class with which to form a solid democratic base is still not developed.

Westerners often criticize the bastardly Chinese government for not being democratic. And yet we never want to take a look at the dark side of the possible reasons why it isn’t, and why it may not be possible for it to be so at this juncture.

[geraldc]

If that was directed at me,

hehehe, it wasn't, it was an attempt to stop the US bashing before it really kicked into gear

[gato]

nowhere, as far as I know, do any high school students in China have to write research papers or critically analyze and disagree with texts. The ability to collect information from various sources and then form opinions is something that can be taught and learned, but it has not been systematically put into the national education system’s curriculum ... To be fair, I think China also had to prioritize and concentrate its money on less airy-fairy things, like the sciences, math, engineering

Unfortunately, efficiency is not necessarily the topmost thing on everyone's mind. The government spends a good bit of money and the students a large chunk of their tender youth on the kind of indoctrination that you indirectly refer to here. There's a catch-22 of sort. It seems that a better educational system is needed to change the political system. It also seems that a better political system is needed to change the educational system. Hmm.

[in_lab]

I have to agree that Lugubert's statement is ridiculous. It's your privelidge to worry about death, but why not concentrate on something more likely, like a car accident or cancer? I don't think "killed by American who mistook you for a Muslim" quite makes it in the top ten. But I guess fear is not required to be rational.

[kaox0018]

I have to agree that Lugubert's statement is ridiculous. It's your privelidge to worry about death, but why not concentrate on something more likely, like a car accident or cancer? I don't think "killed by American who mistook you for a Muslim" quite makes it in the top ten. But I guess fear is not required to be rational.

Because, it is still likely.

There have been a lot of anti-Arab or anyone that look Arab to the American eye (i.e. brown), especially after 9/11.

Even before 9/11, there was a gang in New Jersey that called themselves the Dot Busters who would go around harrassing and beating those who looked Indian. Luckily they don't seem to be active now but if even one person suffers from racially provoked incident, it would be irrational to think that it was just a fluke. Just as how the Dot Busters just beat a man to death on the streets due ot race, wouldn't you be a little afraid if you belonged in that racial group and lived in that area?

I think it's ridiculous to downplay the fear of racism. It's likely to not happen in a way that destroys your life, but if it does, there's very little you can do. You can't jail someone up for having racist views (and I'm not advocating it but i'm not at ease about it either).

It's frustrating because there are some areas that I know that I shouldn't walk into. It doesn't detract from overall wellbeing but the thought that there is an anti-minority/white nationalist prescence in my area doesn't comfort me. It only takes one event to create a racial divide.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/30/wis_shootings_heighten_cultural_tensions?pg=2

The local papers in MN just published an article that illustrates how lethargic the local authories are towards hate crimes or racial harrassment. http://citypages.com/databank/27/1324/article14289.asp

Yes, racism can take a back seat to things like accidents or cancer but in certain situations, worrying about your immeadiate wellbeing is a little more rational.

[Shadowdh]

I think it's ridiculous to downplay the fear of racism.

As it is equally ridiculous to inflate every situation into racism... isnt it a funny fact that racism isnt racist nor prejudism prejudist...

[Ferno]

nowhere, as far as I know, do any high school students in China have to write research papers or critically analyze and disagree with texts. The ability to collect information from various sources and then form opinions is something that can be taught and learned, but it has not been systematically put into the national education system’s curriculum ... To be fair, I think China also had to prioritize and concentrate its money on less airy-fairy things, like the sciences, math, engineering

keep in mind that his is a country where kids start living at school as soon as they're 13, and in some highschools the "sleep time" is from 23:00-04:30... 5 and a half hours to run on, because the teachers want the students to spend as much time studying as possible so they can get the best marks and make the teachers look good.

[Quest]

keep in mind that his is a country where kids start living at school as soon as they're 13, and in some highschools the "sleep time" is from 23:00-04:30... 5 and a half hours to run on, because the teachers want the students to spend as much time studying as possible so they can get the best marks and make the teachers look good.

Kids from where start living at school when they are 13?

[Lugubert]

Kids living at school?! Sounds too exotic to me. Does this really refer to China?