Motive for intervention in the Korean War

[cometrue]

I read that one PLA soldier was given eight North Korean girls as wives by Kim Il Sung.

oh, really, long live the Kim Il Sung!

[Guest cavebear]

Ian,

where is the source?

I would like to read the story which is beyond my wildest imagination.

Hope it is not from those who make a living in the west by fabricating stories.

[cometrue]

Hope it is not from those who make a living in the west by fabricating stories.

so where do you think it's from? one thing is certain, Ian has a lot of spare time, lucky guy!

[Ian_Lee]

Cavebear:

It is a courtesy to fellow posters to reveal your own source before you ask others for sources.

For all those "stories" you mentioned under this topic previously, you never revealed your own sources though.

Well, one PLA married 8 Korean girls in 1954 was not wild imagination.

Our invincible greatest leader Kim Jong Il kidnapped a pretty young Korean movie star and her director husband from Repulse Bay Hotel in Hong Kong in 1970s.

To you such story must have been fabrication too!

[Quest]

Ian_Lee 叔叔, calm down

[woodcutter]

Mr.Mao was a keen student of Chinese imperial history - I have always thought that he probably felt that Korea really should be an integral part of the Chinese sphere, (he thought that about everywhere else that the Qing had some form of control over) and this probably had a great bearing on the desicion to commit troops in Korea. Classic authors on the subject such as Alan White mention this aspect of the motive for war, but the evidence to make it a prime motive is somewhat lacking. Of course such interest in Korea would have to be a secret since it was anti-communist thinking concerning a sensitive area, and he disavowed such intentions, to Edgar Snow (while at the same time as he reiterated China's rights in Tibet and elsewhere). But given the general unstable nature of world borders in 1950, an American charge up this former Chinese tributuary could not really be seen as a purely "foreign" event, in Chinese eyes at least.

[Quest]

where did Ian_Lee 叔叔 go? haven't seen him in a while.

[holyman]

some pows cant return to mainland cos ......

from xinhua net:

国际在线报道：... 1950年6月25日，朝鲜战争爆发。同年10月，我国派出志愿军抗美援朝。1953年7月27日，作战双方在板门店签署了停火协定，朝鲜战争结束。在三年的战争期间，中国人民志愿军有两万多人被俘，朝鲜人民军有11.2万人被俘。而中朝方面则俘获了4417名美英等国籍的士兵和7142名南朝鲜士兵。根据1929年缔结并于1949年修订的《关于战俘待遇之日内瓦公约》，我国和朝鲜政府都对战俘采取了人道主义的态度，在战争期间就释放了大量战俘。但美国作为《日内瓦公约》61个签约国之一，却完全违背了该条约的规定，故意设置障碍，并在战俘处理问题上搞血腥甄别(即“区别”对待愿意或拒绝遣返的战俘)，大规模残杀和虐待中朝战俘。

1953年，在朝鲜战争停战的谈判桌上，美方提出了所谓的“停战后战俘自愿遣返原则”。这明显违反了《日内瓦公约》中有关“停止敌对行动后应当立即释放和遣送战俘”的规定，是拿战俘的命运作为他们在谈判桌上讨价还价的筹码。此外，美军还在战俘营内采取种种手段强迫中国战俘在停战后“要求去台湾”。比如，他们派出一些神父、牧师到战俘营里“传教”，动员战俘皈依“天主”、“上帝”。当他们发现战俘们竟然把《圣经》当作手纸扔进粪桶后，就派遣国民党特务混入战俘营，物色变节者，再由美情报机构秘密将其送往东京受训，然后再任命为各级俘虏官去控制战俘营。同时，美军还在战俘营内成立准武装性质的“战俘警备队”，以“维持秩序、防止暴乱”为名，对不屈服的战俘实施罚爬、罚跪、吊打、往肛门里灌辣椒水、将其扒光衣服塞进装有玻璃渣的汽油桶等残酷刑罚。

揭开“杜德事件”的真相

在朝鲜战争中任所谓“联合国军”司令的美军将领李奇微曾写了一本书，名叫《朝鲜战争——李奇微回忆录》。他在书中提到：美军在1952年1月至4月进行战俘甄别时，战俘营内发生了骚乱。5月7日，巨济岛战俘营中的战俘将杜德将军(此人为美军战俘营总管)扣为人质。这是怎么一回事呢？且来看看真实背景：

1952年4月8日，美方对岛上的中国战俘强制实施“遣返志愿甄别”，即将志愿军战俘划分为“愿回大陆”和“要去台湾”两类并分别关押。对于那些坚决要求回大陆的战俘，美军采用了一切手段阻止，用上了所有能够想象出的酷刑，如剜心、活埋、倒悬、火油灌口、割肉、蒸笼蒸人、沸水煮人等。当被关押在韩国釜山的志愿军伤病战俘们以绝食和升起五星红旗的方式来抗拒美军的非法甄别时，美军对他们采用了断药、断粮、断水的惩罚，甚至把坦克冲进战俘营进行屠杀，并施放了大量的毒气弹，致使在釜山第一、第三伤病战俘收容所里有300多人伤亡。

1952年5月7日，巨济岛第76战俘营里的朝鲜人民军战俘冒着被血腥屠杀的危险，一举扣押了巨济岛美军战俘营总管杜德将军，迫使美方在第76战俘营召开了“朝中战俘代表大会”，并让杜德以书面形式公开承认了对战俘进行血腥甄别的真相，通过了《朝中战俘代表大会向全世界人民控诉书》和《美方战俘管理当局保证书》。这两份文件中，前一份列举了美军对战俘所犯下的各种罪行，后一份文件是关于有杜德签字的、保证美方不再重犯这些罪行的书面承诺。同时，战俘们提出了释放杜德的4项条件，分别是：美军停止野蛮暴行，按照《日内瓦公约》保障战俘的生命安全和人格尊严；停止暴力威胁下的非法“甄别”，宣布“甄别”无效；不得以“自愿遣返”的名义，强迫扣留战俘；承认朝中战俘代表团的合法性，并给予活动的便利。

“杜德事件”震惊了全世界。美国当权者恼羞成怒之下，竟然对战俘进行了残酷的报复：血洗了第76战俘营并将全体战俘代表判为“战犯”，投入岛上的最高监狱。这就是以“人道主义大国”和“人权卫士”自居的美国的做法，真是荒谬之极！

[Disenchant]

Judged by the estimated 1 million PVA death by US source, most likely all these "volunteers" had been "expended" by 1953.

Way late on this one, but fatalities are closer to 144,000. One million is ludicrous. If you want a Western (or at least academically English) source, try Chen Jian's "Mao's China and the Cold War."

[39degN]

Mr.Mao was a keen student of Chinese imperial history - I have always thought that he probably felt that Korea really should be an integral part of the Chinese sphere, (he thought that about everywhere else that the Qing had some form of control over) and this probably had a great bearing on the desicion to commit troops in Korea. Classic authors on the subject such as Alan White mention this aspect of the motive for war, but the evidence to make it a prime motive is somewhat lacking. Of course such interest in Korea would have to be a secret since it was anti-communist thinking concerning a sensitive area, and he disavowed such intentions, to Edgar Snow (while at the same time as he reiterated China's rights in Tibet and elsewhere). But given the general unstable nature of world borders in 1950, an American charge up this former Chinese tributuary could not really be seen as a purely "foreign" event, in Chinese eyes at least.

come on, man, actually mao and CCP even didnt bother to focus on korea, it's stupid Kim Il Sung wanted to "liberate" the whole korean peninsula and started the war, before this, he was trying to ask Mao for support, but Mao showed no interest, and then he begged stalin for help, guileful stalin considered it great oppotunity to fight american without joining the war, so on one hand he promised supporting him with ammo, on the other hand, he pressed Mao gov standing on their side, and according to some agreements between PRC and USSR, mao seemd has no many choices(yes, it's true, so it's so easy to get the conclusion of who is the biggest traitor in chinese history, there are so many details about this, but i cant post them here because of the known reason), so.....

therefore, the only winner of korean war is USSR, the others are all losers.

[shibo77]

I think there are lots of reasons. My source is my grandfather, who had fought in Korea, in the People's Volunteer Army of course...

I think that most of them were true volunteers and not surrendered KMT soldiers. KMT troops joined South Korea and US backed UN force, of course the Chinese representation in the UN then was the government of the ROC. Chiang Kai-shek, and Douglas MacArthur wanted to retake China from communist rule.

The beginning of the war was caused by North Korea wanting to "liberate" take over South Korea, this is the "spread of communism", and if one falls the whole region will fall "domino effect". US had to act out, and in 1950 when communism in China was barely one year old, it was the perfect time and perfect battleground to retake China from communist control. I don't think ROC would have backed UN troops so much if otherwise.

As to the expending the surrendered KMT troops, it is possible, but I don't know about it and my grandfather doesn't know about it. But I am sure most of the People's Volunteer Army were not surrendered KMT troops. Afterall, Mao Zedong's own son was killed as well.

-Shibo

[ala]

Mao's son was a surrendered KMT!! He didn't get along with his dad.

[Troll]

Says who? The official Chinese statement, which is depicted in details in the book «My farther Mao Tsedong” by Li Min, implies that he fell a victim to an American napalm bomb. Neither the North nor South Korean sources give any understandable explanation to his death. Of course, according to Chinese history, he died a heroic death but who out of the Mao family did not?

[ananda]

Says who? The official Chinese statement, which is depicted in details in the book «My farther Mao Tsedong” by Li Min, implies that he fell a victim to an American napalm bomb. Neither the North nor South Korean sources give any understandable explanation to his death. Of course, according to Chinese history, he died a heroic death but who out of the Mao family did not?

So why you think his death is not understandable? No need to report it

to the North or South Korean, right? He served as a secretary of General

Peng Dehuai, during the beginning of Korean war, the US army controlled

the sky, it's quite normal. I think according to American history, he still

died a heroic death, no one in china denies the others.

[shibo77]

I think it may be because he died from a bomb on his way to the toilet...

-Shibo

[ananda]

I think it may be because he died from a bomb on his way to the toilet...

Are you kidding or serious? This is the new version I ever

heard, if it's true, then it's a worst tragedy to die this way.

[shibo77]

Serious, but I'm not sure how true it is.

On his way to the toilet... ergh

-Shibo

[Ian_Lee]

One million PVA casualty is a widely adopted figure in western sources. Read:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559607_2/Korean_War.html#s14

China lost up to 1 million soldiers, and the United States suffered 36,934 dead and 103,284 wounded. Other UN nations suffered 3322 dead and 11,949 wounded.

[ananda]

One million PVA casualty is a widely adopted figure in western sources. Read:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559607_2/Korean_War.html#s14

China lost up to 1 million soldiers, and the United States suffered 36,934 dead and 103,284 wounded. Other UN nations suffered 3322 dead and 11,949 wounded.

From June, 1950 to July, 1953, the whole number of PVA is 1,300,000,

how could china lost up to 1million soldiers? Is it 'western sources'

or US army-during-war sources?

BTW, thoese pitiful Korean are just air, right?

[Ian_Lee]

KMT troops joined South Korea and US backed UN force, of course the Chinese representation in the UN then was the government of the ROC. Chiang Kai-shek, and Douglas MacArthur wanted to retake China from communist rule.

This must be a make-believe story widely circulated in Mainland China. In reality, ROC troops did not participate in UN forces. Read the UN casualty figures in the Korean War:

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/casualty.htm