Baptizing a baby

[xiaojiang216]

大家好,

My mother knows this woman who is adopting a baby girl from China. This woman wants a blessing to be said in Chinese when she is baptized. The senior pastor of her church wrote this:

"May the love of God bring you joy and strength, and fill you with faith, hope and kindness; and as you are blessed by God, may you also be a blessing for others. In Jesus' name. Amen."

I'm not exactly sure how to translate this, because I am not very religious and therefore aren't very familiar with religious words. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thank you all for your time, I know that this woman will appreciate it greatly.

[Long Zhiren]

I don't mean to be difficult or anything for you here, but doesn't anybody at this church speak Mandarin?

If not, what use will a translation be if nobody can pronounce it or understand it?

Here's an attempt at translating it.

願神的慈愛報給你喜樂和能力,將諸般的信,望,恩慈;你是蒙耶和華賜福的了时候希望向外人也被你賜福的.放在耶穌基督的名阿們.

Does that look workable for anyone?

[skylee]

Consider -

"願主的愛帶給你喜樂和力量，並以信、望、愛充滿你；又因你已受到主的祝福，願你也把祝福帶給別人。以(or 奉)耶穌(基督)的名祈求，阿門。"

Depending on the church, God can be 主 or 上帝 or 天主.

And as post #2 has pointed out, who is going to say it in Mandarin if nobody in the Church speaks the language?

[xiaojiang216]

It's a good question, actually. However, it is the request of the woman. Perhaps is it just for ceremonial purposes, or her way of acknowledging her roots in China. I think what will end up happening is I will do whatever she wants to do next. She may have a friend that speaks Chinese that could do it for her. I'm not sure what's really going on yet. She will give me further instructions once I give her a translation.

This particular church is congregational. Which word would I use for God?

Thank you for your help, Skylee.

[sui.generis]

On the other hand, who's going to know if it's pronounced wrong if no one there speaks mandarin?

[xiaojiang216]

On the other hand, who's going to know if it's pronounced wrong if no one there speaks mandarin?

This is what I'm worried about. I cannot stand things like this. So I'm going to mention this to her, and see what she wants to do specifically with the translation. I'll be sure to let her know what works and what doesn't.

[sui.generis]

I was suggesting that that was a good thing. I've been studying mandarin for years, and I'm still apt to screw the tones. It'd be a relief not to see pained expressions on people's faces while I was butchering their language. If no speaks it, what's the harm in one of the pastors not pronouncing it perfectly?

[Long Zhiren]

Wow. You got a lot of responses before I managed to type this out. [i'm slow at typing Chinese, besides being distracted by other activities!]

Here's an attempt at translating it.

願神的慈愛報給你喜樂和能力,將諸般的信,望,恩慈;你是蒙耶和華賜福的了时候希望向外人也被你賜福的.放在耶穌基督的名阿們.Does that look workable for anyone?

[i'm messing with font sizes now because these tiny little Chinese characters are hurting my eyes...]

Skylee, are you a native Mandarin speaker? I'm not.

However, it seems that your use of "帶" might be a tad off.

[Long Zhiren]

This particular church is congregational. Which word would I use for God?

"Congregational" merely means that it's derived from the "Episcopal/Anglican" denominational tradition. Of 主 or 上帝 or 天主, "主" works best.

But as you can see, I've also used

"神" and "耶和華"

[skylee]

I've been thinking hard what i've missed in my last post. It turns out that I forgot to mention that you could also use 神, and "kindness" is not really 愛, but more like 慈愛.

I think you can use 耶和華 if you mean to say Jehovah.

[sissi]

愿主的爱带给你欢乐和力量，并使你有信心、有希望、有爱心。因已得到祝福，愿你也把祝福带给他人，以基督之名。

[Quest]

Skylee, are you a native Mandarin speaker? I'm not.

However, it seems that your use of "帶" might be a tad off.

Nothing wrong with skylee's use of 帶，but your use of 報 was incorrect.

I know Christians in Hong Kong say 奉主耶穌基督之名祈求，阿門。Not sure how they do it in mainland China.

[Lugubert]

The Chinese Bible that I have downloaded starts "太初，上帝创造了天地" (my bold).

"Jehovah" is not a name occurring in the Bible, but comes from a misunderstanding of the Hebrew writing.

[Long Zhiren]

Luguburt says

"Jehovah" is not a name occurring in the Bible, but comes from a misunderstanding of the Hebrew writing.

It does indeed occur in the Bible. When in doubt, refer to the original language!

Hebrew happens to be a weak sixth language of mine. There is no misunderstanding of the Hebrew writing. "耶和華" is a lot closer to "יהוה" than "Jehovah" is [Pardon my Hebrew typing. It's worse than my Chinese typing. I never know whether the word processor's going to fumble it right or left. I can't figure it out!]

It's merely a transliteration of "יהוה" for LORD. It is consistently used in the Hebrew Scriptures, which I occasionally read. "יהוה אלהים" is a very common occurrence "Yahweh Elohim" meaning essentially "LORD God," with "Elohim" being God specifically, not to be confused with any other god.

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm some very good faithful transmission of the words, texts and language over the millenia.

Greek is a weaker seventh language of mine. If you look at the Septuagint, "יהוה" is preserved and becomes a direct reference to the New Testament references where the writers regularly reference the Hebrew Scriptures.

So when 多 馬 說 ： 我 的 主 ！ 我 的 神 ！(約 翰 福 音 20:28 ), it is "יהוה" or "ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου" "יהוה" is transliterated very well as "Jehovah" or "耶和華" but translates as "主," "LORD" or "κυριος." Arguably, the transliteration is more effectual than the translation. As we see happen in the Latin dialects like French, it becomes "Seigneur," which can almost apply to anyone. "יהוה," "Jehovah" or "耶和華" are far more specific. "κυριος" retains the specificness more than "lord," hence the King James' use of all capitals in "LORD."

Since this is a 中文 forum, we'll go back to our regularly scheduled 中文 language materials [i love this forum!!! If we could go full polyglot, I'd go bananas.Writing this little multi-lingual essay was the most fun that I've had in a while. ]:

Quest says

Nothing wrong with skylee's use of 帶，but your use of 報 was incorrect.

I wasn't so sure of the use of 報 here, except that the pastor's prayer is a combination of Biblical language. [Hence the use 耶和華 when the Biblical fragment is of Hebrew scriptural origin.] The best Biblical reference that I could think of for the use of this sense of "bring you" was:

那 天 使 對 他 們 說 ： 不 要 懼 怕 ！ 我 報 給 你 們 大 喜 的 信 息 ， 是 關 乎 萬 民 的 ...from 路 加 福 音 2:10

So apparently, one could say

我 報 給 你 們 大 喜 的 信 息

but perhaps not 我 報 給 你 們 喜 樂 和 能 力??

I figured "帶" is used for only physically tangible things? "喜 樂 和 能 力" need a different verb?

[Quest]

我 報 給 你 們 大 喜 的 信 息

but perhaps not 我 報 給 你 們 喜 樂 和 能 力??

I figured "帶" is used for only physically tangible things? "喜 樂 和 能 力" need a different verb?

報 is used here because the object is 信息。

帶給 -- bring, bring to. obviously, it can go with just about any object.

[Mark Baker]

I'm totally out of line in saying this, and I'll admit it right up front, so no need to flame me with "It's none of your business" replies, but if neither the mother nor anyone else in the church actually speaks Chinese, then I've got just two words in response to this plan:

How friggin' pretentious!!!

OK, so that was three words.

I'm sure the deacons and God will all be so impressed. It just sounds so "Designer Baptism" to me. Are they getting 耶穌愛我 tattoos as well?

[sui.generis]

Parents do all sorts of crazy things. I wouldn't be surprised if the deacon/pastor who's offered to read it would prefer to do it in English.

But if looking for someone who is pretentious, I'd probably make more note of he who is so protective of his precious language skills that he can't bear the thought of anyone else using it shy of years of study or birthright, rather than seeing it in a mom who wants to do something to remember where her baby came from. It's not about being your business or not, but why wouldn't you want more people to be exposed to a little mandarin, imperfect a start though it may be, it is a start.

[Mark Baker]

Interesting interpretation, but my take has nothing to do with the language in question being Chinese. I would think the same if they wanted it spoken in Korean for a child adopted from Korea, Romanian for a child adopted from Romania, and so on.

Having this done in a language that can't be understood by anyone in attendance, if that is in fact what's taking place, strikes me as having just a bit too much flourish for the occasion. Or at the very least overly dramatic. I for one would be rolling my eyes at the back of the sanctuary, anyway.

And to you too.

[sui.generis]

Well at least we agree on one thing.

[Lugubert]

It does indeed occur in the Bible. When in doubt, refer to the original language!

It is exactly because I read the original language and understand the pointing that I made my remark. Perhaps I should have written that the name Jehovah does not occur in correctly translated Bibles. The consonants YHWH, whose vowels we don't know, were supplied with the vowels from another word, adonai 'my Lord' so that nobody should be tempted to try to pronounce the holy name. This method was forgotten and/or not transmitted to Europe, so when people started to study the OT in Hebrew, they read the consonants of the name with the vowels of another word. European scholars generally guess (from clues from other languages) that the pronunciation was Yahwe.