Shanghainese vs Cantonese

[zixingche]

I think if HK was never a British colony and if there wasn't a large oversea Cantonese speaking community, the status of Cantonese would probably be the same as Shanghainese.

I definitely agree, but I think the most important point is that the vast majority of HK people and oversea Cantonese speakers do not speak Putonghua/Mandarin.

There is a massive difference between Cantonese in mainland China, and Cantonese in HK and the overseas Chinese. In mainland China it's just another local dialect/language, just like Shanghaiese, Chengduhua etc, used by native speakers in informal situations.

This is from the wikipedia article on Standard Cantonese (disscussion page): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Standard_Cantonese

Quote from Cultural role: Cantonese enjoys a standing slightly inferior to Mandarin but much superior to other varieties of Chinese in China. This is seen in Guangzhou where announcements in the public transport are made in both Mandarin Chinese and the local lingua franca Cantonese. Not even Shanghainese enjoys this privilege in Shanghai, the largest and arguably the wealthiest city in China. end quote.

Does Cantonese really have a higher standing in Guangzhou than Shanghainese in Shanghai? I think there should be more to back up this statement. The example given about public transport announcements is not very convincing as it is probably for the benefit of non-Mandarin speaking Hong Kong people. I think outside of the Cantonese speaking areas Cantonese is largely irrelevant, it's just another dialect from another part of China, nobody would expect a non-native to understand or speak it. Although amongst the non-Mandarin dialects, Cantonese has more exposure, due to the existence of Hong Kong.

The first paragraph (in italics) was probably written by people from HK, they seem to have a greatly inflated sense of the importance of Cantonese relative to other Chinese dialects/languages. I wonder has anyone got any comments?

[zixingche]

Shanghainese, which has no dictionaries, no films, no songs

Err...there are Shanghainese dictionaries, and the local trad operas are in Shanghainese or Wu. Anyway nearly everything relating to or in Cantonese originate from HK, where it has standard/official status.

...I've seldomly had a Shanghainese tolerate me trying to speak Shanghaihua.

...but i do hear a lot that the shanghainese are very proud and probably wouldn't take too well to a foreigner trying to speak their language.

Is this because they don't want outsiders speaking their language, so they can keep it as a sort of secret code they can use amongst themselves?

[Ian_Lee]

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including Shanghaiese.

In SE Asia, Cantonese was actually not as popular as other dialects. For example, in Philippines, Indonesia, many parts of Malaysia and Singapore, the Chinese immigrants and descendants are all of southern Fujian origin.

But decades afterwards, a lot of these ethnic Chinese feel more comfortable with Cantonese than Xiamenhua.

And in 1949-50, hundreds of thousands Shanghaiese fled to HK. But decades afterwards, they and their descendants all become Cantonese speakers.

What I see is that Cantonese culture is more encompassing than just films and books. In fact, other cultural aspects like Cantonese restaurants have penetrated to every part of China or actually every part of the world.

And other factors like that the Pearl River Delta is always a magnet for people from other provinces to seek jobs there. After staying there for years, naturally they have acquired certain degree of Cantonese proficiency.

[zixingche]

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including Shanghaiese.

Do you mean more widespread? Cantonese is certainly more widespread, due to non-mandarin speaking HK people and to non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers overseas.

In SE Asia, Cantonese was actually not as popular as other dialects. For example, in Philippines, Indonesia, many parts of Malaysia and Singapore, the Chinese immigrants and descendants are all of southern Fujian origin.

But decades afterwards, a lot of these ethnic Chinese feel more comfortable with Cantonese than Xiamenhua.

I’m not sure this about this, do you mean they prefer Cantonese to Min dialects? It could be to do with the influence of HK films and pop music

And in 1949-50, hundreds of thousands Shanghaiese fled to HK. But decades afterwards, they and their descendants all become Cantonese speakers.

This happens with immigrants anywhere, nothing to do with Cantonese as such.

What I see is that Cantonese culture is more encompassing than just films and books. In fact, other cultural aspects like Cantonese restaurants have penetrated to every part of China or actually every part of the world.

All the different cusines in China can found all over China. Cantonese cuisine has spread around the world because most migrants were from Cantonese speaking areas and they opened restaurants in other parts of the world. Again nothing to do with Cantonese culture as such, if in the past large numbers of unskilled emmigrants came from another part of China, then another regional cuisine would have been found overseas.

And other factors like that the Pearl River Delta is always a magnet for people from other provinces to seek jobs there. After staying there for years, naturally they have acquired certain degree of Cantonese proficiency.

Same again, Cantonese just happens to be the local dialect/language. Anyone who moves to a new area would soon pick up the local dialect/language, whatever the area/region and dialect/language.

[zixingche]

Instead of editing my last post, I'll add to it here:

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including Shanghaiese.

Do you mean more widespread?

Cantonese is certainly more widespread, due to non-mandarin speaking HK people and to non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers overseas.

Or do you mean Cantonese itself has qualities or characteristics which people find attractive or appealing, which causes people to want to learn it, or that it has spread to other regions because of these reasons?

The reason Cantonese outside of mainland China has the status it has is to do with HK, and the emmigration of non-mandarin speaking HK people and non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers, particularly to Western countries. It has nothing to do with Cantonese itself.

[Ian_Lee]

Zixingche:

I think you have the misconception that Cantonese is popular because HK was a British colony. But in reality that is far from the truth.

Chinese language did not become an official language in Hong Kong until the early '90s. Many Middle and High Schools didn't even treat Chinese language as a compulsory subject back then. Frankly the British didn't care what kind of Chinese language the people used in Hong Kong.

And even after '97 Cantonese has never been regarded as the only official language in Hong Kong. Formally Chinese is regarded as an official language -- but it never specifies what spoken language that is. So actually Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghaiese, ......are all official languages in HK. If you go to court and you don't know Cantonese, the court is obliged to provide you with an interpreter.

In fact, during HK's history, Cantonese has never been given any importance. Unlike Taiwan's KMT administration which forced Mandarin on locals, HK government (pre or post '97) never enforces Cantonese on its population. For example, the Middle School that I went to used Mandarin as the medium of instruction.

So why can Cantonese thrive despite such neglected status? Most likely due to its vitality.

Why are overseas Chinese in SE Asia familiar with Cantonese? As you said, it is owing to HK's pop culture from media like songs and films. But throughout the '60s and '70s, Taiwan's Mandarin pop culture like songs were even more popular in SE Asia.

Your assumption that any immigrants or workers who choose Pearl River Delta as place of residence or workplace will naturally learn some Cantonese. That is not definite. As our fellow posters have discussed, those outsiders from other provinces who choose Shanghai to work or reside hardly know any Shanghaiese even after lengthy stay.

I guess Shanghaiese is "exclusive" -- don't like non-Shanghaiese to learn their language while Cantonese is "inclusive" -- welcome anyone to know their language.

[zixingche]

I think you have the misconception that Cantonese is popular because HK was a British colony. But in reality that is far from the truth.

What I mean is that Cantonese is “popular” (widespread) not because HK was a British colony as such but because the use of Mandarin for official purposes, in the media and as the language of education was never imposed as it was outside the control of the PRC. My point is that Cantonese has spread to other regions because of emigration of non-mandarin speaking HK people and non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers.

Chinese language did not become an official language in Hong Kong until the early '90s. Many Middle and High Schools didn't even treat Chinese language as a compulsory subject back then. Frankly the British didn't care what kind of Chinese language the people used in Hong Kong.

And even after '97 Cantonese has never been regarded as the only official language in Hong Kong. Formally Chinese is regarded as an official language -- but it never specifies what spoken language that is. So actually Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghaiese, ......are all official languages in HK. If you go to court and you don't know Cantonese, the court is obliged to provide you with an interpreter.

In fact, during HK's history, Cantonese has never been given any importance. Unlike Taiwan's KMT administration which forced Mandarin on locals, HK government (pre or post '97) never enforces Cantonese on its population. For example, the Middle School that I went to used Mandarin as the medium of instruction.

So why can Cantonese thrive despite such neglected status? Most likely due to its vitality.

Whether official or not, Cantonese has been and still is the native language of the majority of HK people. I think you might have underestimated the use of Cantonese amongst the Chinese population of HK. I went to junior school in HK in the 70s, for the Chinese everything was in Cantonese.

Languages thrive because people use it, As far I know there wasn’t restrictions on HK people speaking Cantonese, the HK government (pre or post '97) just didn’t need to enforce Cantonese on its population, they spoke Cantonese anyway.

Your assumption that any immigrants or workers who choose Pearl River Delta as place of residence or workplace will naturally learn some Cantonese. That is not definite. As our fellow posters have discussed, those outsiders from other provinces who choose Shanghai to work or reside hardly know any Shanghaiese even after lengthy stay.

I guess Shanghaiese is "exclusive" -- don't like non-Shanghaiese to learn their language while Cantonese is "inclusive" -- welcome anyone to know their language.

Sorry, I should have said some migrants might pick up the local dialect to some extent, but the point is that it just happens to be local dialect/language.

If more migrants learn Cantonese than Shanghainese, then it might have something to do with the fact that it might be harder to learn Shanghainese informally because of the reluctance of Shanghainese speakers to use Shanghainese with outsiders.

[Cirrus888]

English was the only official language in HK pre-97 although it was widely accepting that people had to use it in conjunction with english. Post-97 English, Cantonese and Mandarin become the official languages.

Ex HK civil servant.

[Cirrus888]

What I can't edit posts?

The cantonese announcements made on public transport in shenzhen and guangzhou city are definitely for the benefit of HK people who travel to these places in droves particularly during the weekends and holidays. The fact that guangzhou province including Shenzhen has so much prosperity is due to the proximity and influence of HK.

Even so guangdonghua is still only spoken by about 60% of the people I cam across in guangzhou and a much lower percentage in shenzhen.

[skylee]

English was the only official language in HK pre-97 although it was widely accepting that people had to use it in conjunction with english. Post-97 English, Cantonese and Mandarin become the official languages.

I don't think so. The Official Languages Ordinance of HK (Cap 5) specifies that "The English and Chinese languages are declared to be the official languages of Hong Kong for the purposes of communication between the Government or any public officer and members of the public and for court proceedings. (Amended 51 of 1995 s. 2)" .

[Cirrus888]

Yeah but it was always the english version that over-rode everything else.

[flameproof]

>I think if HK was never a British colony and if there wasn't a large oversea Cantonese speaking community, the status of Cantonese would probably be the same as Shanghainese.

I doubt that VERY strongly! The reason why Cantonese became standard China outside of China is more related to the very large migration out of Taishan area in western Guangdong. That's were many settlers came from for the california goldrush or into Australia.

HK had for sure a large influence too. Cantonese has their own culture and is exported too. I presume SH culture was rather surpressed in China for political reasons. One remember also that China does not really support regional identities, except if they are small mountain tribes.

Talking about HK one should remember it was only very, very thinly populated when the brits took over. And after that there was a strong migration to HK.

But surely, if I would live in SH I would learn some SH-hua too. Numbers are strangely similar to cantonese already, the rest will be a piece of cake (and that was was a joke!)

xia xia!

[flameproof]

>And other factors like that the Pearl River Delta is always a magnet for people from other provinces to seek jobs there.

Only since the mid 80's. Remember that it was very difficult to move places in the older days.

>After staying there for years, naturally they have acquired certain degree of Cantonese proficiency.

I know many which are married to a cantonese, lived for decades in GZ, and never learnt the language. Fact is, you can get around easiely with Mandarin.

[Mugi]

I doubt that VERY strongly! The reason why Cantonese became standard China outside of China is more related to the very large migration out of Taishan area in western Guangdong. That's were many settlers came from for the california goldrush or into Australia.

I agree with the person you're refuting - the primary reason that Cantonese has attained the status that it has is ultimately due to the economic power of Hong Kong, which in turn would not have occurred without the British. You forget that Seiyap (Taishan dialect) is mutually unintelligible with standard Cantonese, although both belong to the same Cantonese topolect. The effect of Taishan immigrants on the popularization of "Cantonese" culture is tenuous at best.

Only since the mid 80's. Remember that it was very difficult to move places in the older days.

People have been moving to the Pearl River Delta for centuries, irrespective of how difficult it was to travel there...

I know many which are married to a cantonese, lived for decades in GZ, and never learnt the language. Fact is, you can get around easiely with Mandarin.

Decades? Really? Years, I could imagine. I studied in GZ for a year some 10 odd years ago and met some northerners who had been there several years and couldn't speak much Cantonese, but although you can get by fine with Mandarin these days, that was only just starting to happen when I was there. It was still 95% Cantonese in all situations. I can't imagine that another 10 years earlier than that that Mandarin could have been used in any situation other than speaking with government officials and academics from outside of Guangdong. Even if the person you were speaking to could understand Mandarin, the reply would have been in Cantonese in most situations. There's no way you could have survived with only Mandarin.

[zixingche]

Quote:

I know many which are married to a cantonese, lived for decades in GZ, and never learnt the language. Fact is, you can get around easiely with Mandarin.

Decades? Really? Years, I could imagine. I studied in GZ for a year some 10 odd years ago and met some northerners who had been there several years and couldn't speak much Cantonese, but although you can get by fine with Mandarin these days, that was only just starting to happen when I was there. It was still 95% Cantonese in all situations. I can't image that another 10 years earlier than that that Mandarin could have been used in any situation other than speaking with government officials and academics from outside of Guangdong. Even if the person you were speaking to could understand Mandarin, the reply would have been in Canotnese in most situations. There's no way you could have survived with only Mandarin.

I might be wrong but I thought that, even 20 years ago, apart from the elderly virtually everyone in GZ (whether they are from GZ or other places, but obviously not including non-Mandarin speaking HK people) cound understand and speak Mandarin.

[Xiaohua]

Ok, here is what I think. I like Shanghinese, the sound is an aquired taste, but I like it. The only reason that I find it hard to learn is because. As was stated before, there is hardly any resources for learning Shanghinese. I've looked and came up empty handed. I hope it dosen't die out, because I think it has just as much to offer, as dose, Mandarin, and Cantonese. I think all three are rich languages/dialects.

[Mark Yong]

As was stated before, there is hardly any resources for learning Shanghainese. I've looked and came up empty handed.

I recently picked up this book on basic Shanghai dialect "基礎上海話" (http://www.hkbookcity.com/showbook2.php?serial_no=123). It also comes with a CD. Plus, this is one (1) of three (3) volumes (the other two are 上海話旅遊通 and 上海話商務通, sold separately). It's quite ironic that a book on the Shanghai dialect is published in Hong Kong, not Shanghai.

I have been to Shanghai a couple of times, and have always enjoyed listening to my Shanghainese colleagues engaging in lively conversations with the taxi drivers in the local dialect. The sounds and sentence structures are vividly different from Cantonese (my own native dialect), but I can make out some of the meanings.

I am aware that this is a politically-sensitive topic, but I really do hope to see the day when the local language policy will allow the Shanghainese dialect to be promoted and given some status - if not for any other reason than the preservation of a unique aspect of Chinese culture. After close to a century of successfully promoting 普通話 as the natioanl standard, I personally think it is of no threat to China's language unification if the regional dialects are allowed to thrive.