Why Learning Chinese Is a Smart Business Move - Top 10 Reasons

[gougou]

and say in english" hi name is XXX, I'm calling from XXXX, "and then switch right into chinese.

Why would you say the first line in English?

[stephanhodges]

This site has a lot of business phrases, well organized by topic:

http://polishbiz.brinkster.net/

[xiaojiang216]

This site has a lot of business phrases, well organized by topic:

http://polishbiz.brinkster.net/

Are there are many misspellings of 拼音, or is that just a Polish variation?

[anthony_barker]

Pretend that you don't know any Mandarin and then listen for when they are trying to screw you..

Honestly - making money in China until recently is very hard. Much easier to buy stuff made in China and hawk it to foreign countries. Or teach Chinese English.

In China not only is everyone else out to steal your business or technology. The government is as well. Read "Mr China" for a good overview.

[self-taught-mba]

Pretend that you don't know any Mandarin and then listen for when they are trying to screw you..

I'll admit to that

Does anyone know where I should publish this?--kinda new to web publishing. You can pm me. help appreciated.

[Roee]

WHY learn Mandarin?

(if there's a thread already discussing this-pardon)

[self-taught-mba]

WHY learn Mandarin?

(if there's a thread already discussing this-pardon)

Huh? Hello? This is a thread about this.

[Roee]

Huh? Hello? This is a thread about this.

I was actually hoping the new post on the thread would answer the question but it didn't As neither this entire thread, really.

Let me elaborate a bit:

Currently, Sep. 2006 the situation as I see it, in a simplified version, is as following:

These points refer to Westerners who are not overseas Chinese:

1. Mandarin is no longer enough to get you a job in China, and if it's not the case now it will soon be so.

2. To get fluent and at a level that is sufficient for a work environment one has to put in A LOT of effort and time -- at the same time and effort

one can do a master degree and learn another foreign language (not including Japanese etc. and of course depends on the person.)

3. One at least has to learn how to read as his Local competitors know how to read AND write.

4. As noted, interpreters are cheap and easily found.

5. Many Chinese can speak fluent English now and other languages; these numbers will probably greatly increase every year as learning English is the current trend.

6. World wide Chinese is hyped and many are studying it. If you start now, by the time you get fluent, or even just graduate from an institute at your home country, there will be masses of other foreigners who are fluent in Mandarin and plenty of other Chinese who are fluent in English.

7. Returning Overseas Chinese: more and more returnees are coming to China. They often have great language skills and can more easily integrate into local business environment and culture. As China economy develops and increase many will return to China or come live in China bringing their skills with them.

There are actually a few more points, but that's enough for now. The question is: unless you are studying Mandarin as a hobby, is the investment really worth it? Few years ago it was, for sure, but now?

[carlo]

I won't try to argue that learning Chinese is a smart business move, because learning a language is not a pure economic decision for most people anyway (well, maybe it is if you sell fake watches in Sanlitun, but even that is debatable). But while I can understand what you mean, learning Chinese is not a complete waste of time even from an economic point of view. Like all language skills of course, it's useful and it may be necessary, but it's almost never sufficient to get you a job.

The argument that Chinese can speak English can be made of any language. Unfortunately, most non-Chinese also speak English as a foreign language, and the limitations of speaking to each other in a third language are often embarassing, a tremendous waste of time and energy that may be tolerable if you are on a temporary assignment, but that become a major irritation if you spend years of your working life leafing through not one dictionary but two. The number of Chinese who speak foreign languages other than English is alas much lower, and won't increase anytime soon (these languages are grouped under 小语种 for a reason）.

As to returnees, someone who has spent a few years in another country as a graduate student can hardly match a native in terms of exposure to language and culture (note that this works both ways). This is certainly not their fault: it's just that nobody can grow up in two places at the same time. This is less obvious with English because many young Chinese now learn English in China much earlier than English speakers learn any Chinese, so some are bilingual to some extent. But truly bilingual job candidates are few and far between, in my whole working life I've probably only seen a handful. As long as this is the case, committed language learners don't need to worry.

[Roee]

Carlo, thanks for taking the time to write your elaborate reply, however I'm not really convinced yet (don't get me wrong, after all the effort I've put in, I WANT to be convinced --

"returnees": I personally know quite a few that went abroad at an early age and are now coming back with years of work experience. Not to mention that there are plenty of Second generation Chinese returning to China, if they are not fluent upon arrival, it will take them a short time. Again, I personally know quite a few. This is your competition. and it's only starting.

"Chinese not being a complete waste of time": well, of course it isn't so learning any other language. The 1 million dollar question is about "boom for the bucks".

Conversing through a third language: I agree with you that it's a pain in the ass; however, the question still remains: you'd have to get your mandarin to better level than the local English, and we are not talking sesame street here. This means at least reading Chinese, if not written! MAJOR task for the common man unless you are especially talented. I'm not saying this from the foreigner point of view -- after living in China I can say with confidence that Mandarin is a difficult language for the locals as well and they are exposed to it from a small age.

Carlo, lets make this a bit more practical: you are not one of those who can learn 25 languages and don't look Chinese. You live in China and can study every day. How long would it take you to master Mandarin to the level mentioned above (include reference to reading and writing) and at what cost?

[gato]

Carlo, lets make this a bit more practical: you are not one of those who can learn 25 languages and don't look Chinese. You live in China and can study every day. How long would it take you to master Mandarin to the level mentioned above (include reference to reading and writing) and at what cost?

You should look at Carlo's blog first.

http://uthacalthing.spaces.live.com/?_c11_blogpart_blogpart=blogview&_c=blogpart&partqs=amonth%3d8%26ayear%3d2006

Carlo also mentioned at some point that he has a PhD in math. For mere mortals, it might take four to six years of full-time study in a full-immersion environment to get to full fluency in speaking, reading, writing, I would reckon (but I'm one of those returnees you were speaking of). Maybe wushijiao, zhwj, or one of the other advanced learners will chime in.

[wix]

8. Because 2 billion people speak Chinese

That's right' date=' 2 billion! Talk about having access to a greater social and professional network! Can you think of one other activity that could possibly open up more doors than learning Chinese?[/quote']

Can you cite any references for this claim? I find it highly dubious. Particularly when various media outlets today reported that only half of the people in China can speak standard Mandarin. (ref: People's Daily, Taipei Times)

Even if you expand the definition of Chinese to include all Chinese languages and dialects I doubt the number of speakers would be 2 billion.

[wai ming]

No offence to anyone, but I really doubt there are *that* many returnees who are fully or near fully fluent in both Chinese or English. Perhaps it's just the people you know, Roee - but many Chinese who go overseas for high school or university never become fluent or near fluent in English (in reading, writing, speaking or listening), and a lot of second generation Chinese and those who come when they are younger lose most of their advantage in Chinese after a few years of full-time schooling, particularly in reading and writing, but there are also some who end up speaking English at home, and very little Chinese.

I honestly think that someone like Carlo, who's not of Chinese ethnicity but who spends at least a few years in China learning Chinese, will end up being closer to 'fluent' in both English (or their native language) and Chinese than a Chinese person who goes overseas to study something like accounting/business or engineering in university. Part of that is to do with the reason for going overseas - if you're going overseas to study a language, that's quite different from going overseas to study something else and hoping that you'll pick up the language as a positive side effect.

[Roee]

Regarding returnees and second gen, it's happening now and as things are going on in china the numbers can triple in one year if not more. Think of all the Chinese population abroad, think even 2 to 3 years from now (ok if the bubble doesnt burst )

Gato,

Thanks. How about giving it a go and answering the main question?

BTW in my comment to Carlo the "you are.." supposed to be "lets say you are..."

[carlo]

I wouldn't turn this into a pissing contest, my Chinese, English etc leave much to be desired and I have an MSc, not a PhD. Anyway, I came here to work and cannot study as much as I would like to, still I'm not giving up.

Personally I use Mandarin at work every day without many problems, and that includes drafting documents, writing correspondence and reading books and articles. If I have an important document that has to go public, I'll let native speakers proofread it first. As a non-native speaker of English, I'd do exactly the same if I were working in New York.

Considering how cheap books and CDs are in China, Japanese is a much more expensive language to learn than Chinese. There is an opportunity cost in reading Tang poems rather than going to Maggie's, but that's very subjective.

The problem with most adult learners of Chinese (including those of Chinese descent) is that we didn't get enough early exposure to the language. This is the main reason why Chinese is 'hard' for us IMHO, too much to catch up with. I agree with you that this is changing to an extent, I'm expecting to see a few more competent bilinguals in the job market in 10 or 15 years' time. But we'll be rich by then, right? ;)

[Green Pea]

Roee, can you explain why you think it is (or is not) worth the investment for Chinese to study overseas, gain work experience, and then come back?

As to your question, I'll take a crack at it.

It's still worth it for non-Chinese Westerners to make the investment because...

1. Returnees are stuck on themselves thinking they are the great bridge. The position themselves as all-knowing gatekeepers, relying on culture and guanxi baloney. Yet, they frequently fail to produce. Foreigners can chuck all of that out and get the job done.

2. Foreigners are more likely to sees problems, find mistakes, and then escalate them. Smart companies hire these types. Locals and returnees are too afraid of authority or incompetent to do so.

3. Foreigners can be scapegoats when things go wrong.

4. Foreigners are more likely to rely on facts, figures, and analysis to do the job. They are less likely to rely on rumours.

5. Chinese overestimate their English fluency and disproportionally underestimate the foreigners' Chinese capability.

6. Chinese and returnees still have a very difficult time producing high-quality work in English. Even native English people do. So roles like an advertising executive can still be done by a foreigner.

7. Foreigners can bring technical job skills. Top foreign executives have often worked in 4-5 countries, unlike returnees and can operate in French, German, Italian, etc.

9. Foreigners can often be dispatched for business trips easier without visas.

10. Returnees can be fluent but still not speak that well. The foreigner may not be afraid to pick up the phone and make dozens of international calls.

11. The returnees might never come back.

12. Business is business. If two real businessman want to get something done, then language is a non-issue. Often it's all that language crap that gets in the way. Not speaking Chinese may be more efficient.

13. Foreigners can manage disparate groups of Chinese employees better because they have less group/lineage/political loyalty.

14. Foreigners are usually less able to take kickbacks and bribes, which can be the bread and butter of returnees.

15. Foreigners don't have to master Chinese to get work many types of jobs.

[HashiriKata]

Green Pea,

Most of the reasons you gave have more to do with big-headed, and often wrong, assumptions and very little, if at all, to do with the reasons why we need to learn Chinese or whether we can learn Chinese properly at all.

[Roee]

Green peas,

"Roee, can you explain why you think it is (or is not) worth the investment for Chinese to study overseas, gain work experience, and then come back?"

You are confused. Who said anything in regard to Chinese going to study Overseas ?! I sure didnt.

[Green Pea]

I think we can now add point 11 to student MBAs good list:

11. Non-Chinese Westerners can readily compete against returnees for jobs in China.

Foreigners who learn Chinese, not even to a level of mastery, can get jobs in China. Contrary to popular belief, they can readily compete against returnees. Returnees' salaries are being squeezed because their level of English is not much better than local Chinese and are more expensive. Foreigners who speak Chinese also bring other benefits and experience (see above) to companies that returnees do not have.

[heifeng]

I agree with #11, but I guess my question is (hoping I'm not getting off topic here), is this salary squeeze really due to returnees English skills not being great or just due to the fact that if companies are going to go through the effort of offshoring and moving operations abroad, why give people puffed up salaries? It even seems that ex-pat packages aren't necessarily as available as they use to be and ( maybe each profession is a bit different / or maybe I'm under the wrong impression) that if you have the skills and experience they will send you to China to get a job done or set up the China office and train people. Maybe the big manager will get sent over occasionally, but how many positions are there really going to be in China for foreigners with lean-obsessed, streamlining, constantly being restructured corporations when local labor and talent is cheap and abundant? Are these international companies really willing to hire a non local person, pay the taxes, fees, living expenses etc associated with an employee working abroad. I know that when I was in my previous firm they said that ex-pat positions usually caused the company big bucks and were very much limited to management (hmm, you want 10-20+ years experience, not 10-20 months???). Furthermore they emphasized experience over language skills. I'm not saying positions aren't open for regular past entry level, but non management level employees, but how many are there really? (no seriously, I have no clue, are there some, alot, none?)

Outsourcing Manufacturing, technical and engineering positions:

Not to be really cynical, but it seems to me the best use of learning Chinese (and other languages) is to train local employees how to do certain jobs so that the actual cost of labor can be reduced and make shareholders happy. Usually people who have language skills in addition to their actual "real" skillset have such lucky tasks. (for example, maybe a US company freezes US hiring but overseas hiring is infinitely open. However, only employees with working status in that country can apply to the equivalent jobs opening there.)

I guess if you want to work in the US (or other country) and just utilize your language skills it doesn't seem so hard to find an opportunity to use Chinese (Let's hold a teleconference and find out wtf is going on with those parts). As far as working IN China and competing with locals or returnees, aside from the level of English skills when communicating with the other offices, it doesn't seem like there are overflowing opportunities for Chinese speaking foreigners in these areas.

Luckily, I just learned Chinese because I just enjoy studying it and torturing myself, not necessarily because I thought, yes, let me learn this language and eventually relocate these industries overseas! Otherwise I wouldn't have studying the language for sooooo loooooong, and I wouldn't have studied so much classical Chinese either!

(In regard to whether or not it is as difficult as one thinks, it really depends how deeply you want to get into the language. It seems easy when you start from nothing and get to a few hundred simply characters, but the learning curve tends to level off at an advanced level, but this is a discussion for another thread...)