哪儿(nar) or 哪里 (nali) in Shanghai ?

[stoney]

Which one would be more common in Shanghai / Hangzhou?

Would they both be readily understood?

Thanks.

[流]

My guess is 哪里. I think "r" is a beijing accent... But then again, i would not trust me if i were you...

[Yuchi]

哪里 is more prevalent in Shanghai, but they're both fine.

[dalaowai]

If you say 哪儿 in Shanghai/Hangzhou, as a foreigner, there's a good chance they'll laugh at you. Anytime I want to get a cheap laugh, I speak with the Northern accent and excessively use 儿.

So yeah, 哪里 is most commonly used in Shanghai/Hangzhou.

[Mugi]

If you say 哪儿 in Shanghai/Hangzhou, as a foreigner, there's a good chance they'll laugh at you.

Rubbish. While the lack of 儿化音 is by far the norm for natives of Shanghai, Hangzhou and the environs when speaking Mandarin, locals will not blink twice at a northern Chinese or foreigner who uses it naturally. I'm sure people would give you a friendly laugh if you were obviously trying to put on a Beijing accent, but otherwise no one is going to even notice (at least that's my experience as a foreigner with a northern accent who has travelled many a time in that part of China).

[L-F-J]

Putonghua isn't their dialect anyway. They speak Shanghaihua or Hangzhouhua first. So if they laugh at you tell them to go somewhere.

[dalaowai]

Well Mugi, I've been living in Zhejiang/Shanghai area for over three years. I assume that you must of lived in this area longer than I have to be able to boldly state "rubbish".

[stoney]

Thanks for the input. Very interesting. I can hardly wait to go and see/hear for myself.

I've been doing Pimsleur, which I think uses a 'northen' accent , and also listen to Chinesepod, which is out of Shanghai, and I've noticed some differences.

[Mugi]

dalaowai, I didn't mean to offend you , just thought your comment was way off base and wanted to provide more accurate information to stoney. I believe you are misunderstanding why people may give you a laugh when you use "nar" instead of "nali" - it will most certainly not be because of the word itself, but rather because it probably sounds contrived and unnatural when you say it (which may of course be a deliberate act on your behalf).

Both 哪儿 and 哪里 are standard Putonghua and can be used anywhere in China. No one is ever going to misunderstand you if you use one over the other, and no one will ever laugh at you if you use (pronounce) the words naturally (at least that's my experience over the last 12 years).

[dalaowai]

Mugi, maybe English isn't your native tongue, so I shouldn't of taken offense to the term "rubbish". English isn't my native tongue, therefore it could of been a misunderstanding.

For example, if a Chinese person goes to America, (with a Chinese accent) and ends up living in North Dakota and speaks with a Louisiana drawl, the locals will get a kick out of it.

Another example, if I go to Quebec and I speak with a Prairie-French accent/slang, locals will poke fun at me.

It's the same if you're in the north or south of China. Of course in all three cases, people will understand your meaning, but they'll definitely be out of the norm.

Since the post came up, I took the liberty of asking my Shanghainese friends how they felt about foreigners speaking with a Northern accent in Shanghai. One friend said that he felt that foreigners who did that were arrogant. I felt surprised by his comment, and he said that he didn't expect foreigners to learn Shanghainese, but at least speak the local Mandarin. Another friend said that it didn't bother her, but she thought it was a bit strange. My Uni teacher (from Liaoning) said that she would be amused.

In the end, both are understandable, however when living in a certain area, regardless which language/country, it's best to use the local vocab.

[imitation]

I'll also add that I think most people won't notice if you are only using the nar instead of nali but if your speech is littered with 儿 endings ie 北京话 people think it sounds strange, this is my experience in Guangzhou. People occasionally use nar here but I don't hear it often. I use either or and never raise an eyebrow.

There are lots of things that can give away where you've learnt chinese though I suppose, I went to out of GZ just to Hunan and people said they could tell I'd studied there, from the way i use 有，有，有啊. And I also sometimes use the cantonese variant of 好的 (sounds like houle).

So I think it doesn't really matter is what i'm getting at you'll have an accent from where ever you've studied as long as you are clear and understood that's most important.

[L-F-J]

For example, if a Chinese person goes to America, (with a Chinese accent) and ends up living in North Dakota and speaks with a Louisiana drawl, the locals will get a kick out of it.

Another example, if I go to Quebec and I speak with a Prairie-French accent/slang, locals will poke fun at me.

It looks like there is a difference here. These cases are all talking about accents. It's not the same. People won't think oh you pronounce 那里 like 那儿. These are two different words, not different ways to pronounce the same word.

It's different than if Australians say "g'day, maw nyme is.." Maw and nyme aren't words. These are different ways to pronounce my and name. That's why we don't spell them like that, as if they count as different words. 那里 and 那儿 are two different words with different characters and different pronunciations. It's a difference in vocab not accent. It may be a Northern vocab but not accent. I'm sure foreigners have accents influenced by their own native language, more so than by any area in China. That's just vocab.

On a side note, I heard recently that most Chinese don't like it when foreigners try to sound native. They prefer them to have accents. Not as far as I've experienced, but what has anyone else heard of this? It sounds like it's not something they would not like, but just a fetish for foreign accents. Plenty of Americans love accents from different countries. But I don't think they would not like it if someone developed a good American accent.

[ameliasj]

I am Shanghainese, and I think both 哪里 and 哪儿 are acceptable, though most of us may use 哪里 more often. What's more, I think 哪里 sounds more formal (or more often in written works) than 哪儿，while it doesn't mean that we will laugh at foreigner who say "哪儿".

Actually in Shanghai, we use Shanghainese more frequently, so we will use "阿里的" (just written by the sound, there's no formal characters) more than the above two.

[Lu]

I think nali and nar hardly qualify as two different words. They're not like xingqi and libai, or zhongtou and xiaoshi. Well, I guess that depends on your definition of a Chinese word.

I never heard that Chinese don't like foreigners to sound native. I usually only get praise when I sound native, and I hear the same about other people. Why would the Chinese mind anyway?

[englishboy]

I also use 哪儿 rather than 哪里 when I am in China...it's just a Pimsleur thing - don't recall much emphasis on 哪里

My friends in Shanghai certainly don't laugh at me when I use 哪儿. I asked them which is "better" and they all said that 哪儿 was a little more friendly....but then they proceeded to use 哪里 !!!!

As regards sounding like a native...well Pimsleur encourages a fairly standard Northern accent so this is what I have. I have never experienced any problems with having a standard Chinese accent - exactly the opposite in fact - people just say it's clear and easy to understand.....

[Mugi]

I think nali and nar hardly qualify as two different words.

I agree. In fact I was thinking about adding a somewhat academic footnote to an earlier posting, but opted not to. Here it is now instead. Some scholars believe that for this particular word (as well as "here" and "there"), 里 and 儿/兒 are actually derived from the same suffix, with the two forms (pronunciations) diverging sometime pre-Song dynasty. I think this is mentioned in a book entitled 北宋语气词及其源流 by 罗骥 (but I could be mistaken - he definitely talks about the derivation of 里, but I can't remember if he also makes the link with 儿/兒 or not.)

[atitarev]

I wonder if there are Taiwanese reading this thread. They will probably say, that 兒化 is not used in Taiwan. They use 那裡, not 那兒 and words never have the 儿(兒) ending, which is considered Beijingese and not standard Mandarin. It seems that Beijing usage of 儿 has become standard in Mainland and is not considered just local to Beijing (?). However, many southerners can't even pronounce the retroflex "r", so they don't use it.

[weiming]

Interesting thread! I lived in Beijing for a couple of years, and picked up the accent there. I used to live on the outskirts of the city and interact with a lot of folks with strong accents.

I of course was oblivious to this until a tiwanese friend started pointing out how severe my accent was. Being a stickler about this, I began paying special attention to it and tried to move to something more of a 'national television news anchor standard'. Of course, I always regress to my 'ghetto' Mandarin when I get emotional.

Having lived in Shanghai now for about a year, I can still clearly recall when I first arrived and some of the fun language 'run ins' I had at the time.

*it was hard not to burst out laughing when the locals would use '两' as the number two, instead of referring to two things. i.e.　两楼--the second floor, and not two buildings

*supressing the same reacition when locals [usually female] pronounce 可以 as 'kwuyee',

they sound like children

*Imagine my surprise when my friend pointed out with a sheepish laugh that shanghianese don't usually use '咱们' [awww, it took me like a week to learn to use that smoothly in conversation too...oh well]

*I was quite deflated when a taxi driver repeatedly poked fun at me over my flagrant use of 边儿　i.e. '就停在路边儿' [and that was one of my favourites...]

These 'quirks' slowly and quietly worked their way out of my repotiore, only to be replaced by clever little Shanghai colloquialisms which normally take the form of rapid short suffixes like 对吧拉　[pronounced de-va-la]　and x+的了 如：可以的了

Yeah, when in Rome...or well, Shanghai. It's your basic way of saying "I like people here more than 'Beijingers" Which is music to Shanghainese ears, as little love is lost between the two major cities.

Yeah if there's one thing I can gather from my experiences in China, it's that they likes 'em some '仇'. It's almost funny to hear people universally and unilaterally talk about who they 'can't stand'.

[weiming]

Someone mentioned earlier Chinese people not 'liking' foreigners without an accent [or rather with a very good Chinese accent].

I don't want to tread into dangerous waters here [so why am I doing it] but I can report people having not negative...but not-positive reactions to my accent [or lack thereof].

I'll venture some guesses as to why, these of course being my own personal and ultimately inconsequential theories.

Many Chinese admit to being shocked, or a little disturbed by my accent. I think there are a lot of factors in there, China is still very much culturally isolated, as far as face to face penetration of 'outside' culture into everyday China.

Hence the fact that they still get away with the term 'laowai'. Foreigners speaking Chinese in movies are always doing so clumsily, and usually getting the short end of the stick because of it.

Most of the knee-jerk reactions I get from folks [this varying inversely with their general level of education/exposure to foreign culture] is a veneer of shock over curosity which in turn vies with disdain. A clumsily speaking foreigner is just more 'comfortable' for most native Chinese, they seem 'easier to handle'. Their knowledge of the language is obviously limited so it gives natives a place to retreat if they want something to go over her/his head in conversation.

Everyone seems a little displeased when they realise I'm probably going to catch almost everything. Even if no subterfuge is planned, I guess it would be like if you had a secret code language with your friend and then discovered a third party could also use it.

Anecdotally, I attended an activity where I had to walk up and talk to random strangers, some people would physically jump if I addressed them from behind and they turned around and saw me, others were too busy looking at me as if I'd sprouted another head to even pay attendtion to what I was saying.

Another colleague poutingly admonished me for being 'no fun anymore' since I didn't seem to have an excessively goofy accent.

Ok, so that got long even though it was supposed to be brief...oh well.

Cheers!