Pronunciation of "w" and "r"

[BanZhiYun]

@陈德聪 As I said, my Chinese is obviously superior to yours (I am writing all my course work in Chinese, so there you go.) so trying to, once again as usual, be personal with me, is funny to me. Maybe I know what it means? Who knows. You wouldn't be the standard to decide whether I know or not. Oh, whether it's appropriate or not, in either context, you are not the one to decide either, right? After all you have your own interpretation of what I said, maybe you didn't even get what I was trying to say to begin with. So I am not sure why you try to be the standard for what other people are saying? Maybe you yourself never grasped the meaning, lol.

As to your "why", you have contradictions from the start to finish. But who am I to prove you wrong, right? As I said, good luck with your future professional development, I am not the one to "teach" you, especially since you are done with university studies. On the other hand, I will make my best to improve as much as I can during my studies. Now, let's say we're done, oh and yeah, whenever you read something written by me, you'd better make sure you know what I am talking about before replying to me. Otherwise, you are starting a pointless fight with people on the Internet. Trying to be "authoritative" on an online forum is beyond me. As I said, if you want to prove your "why's", go write an academic work that would be published by anyone. Then you can try and be condescending to people; otherwise, you are coming off as jerk, no? To finish off, 子曰：“学而不思则罔，思而不学则殆。” But maybe I have no idea what this means either, or it's inappropriate for this context either? ;) No matter what, you would not be the one to decide either.

[skylee]

“@陈德聪 As I said, my Chinese is obviously superior to yours (I am writing all my course work in Chinese, so there you go.) ”

I can't believe I am reading this!

[BanZhiYun]

@skylee Well, he was trying to be condenscending to me. And I am not exactly sure what's so unbelievable about it. It's just a little extreme, but who said it can't be a fact? It's just a condescending attitude from my part.

P.S. To be more accurate, what I mean is my academic writing in Chinese is more superior  than his. Why? Because I've done academic works in Chinese (he has done them in English). So, equivalently, he can say his Academic English is better than mine. So should I go and be like "Oh my god, I can't believe I am reading this!"? The answer is no. It's just a very condescending attitude towards others, but it's a fact.

[lips]

obwiously superior?

I did my B.S., MBA, and Ph.D. in English. Does this mean my Chinese is obwiously inferior?

[BanZhiYun]

That's the point I am trying to make. So I am not sure if you are talking to me or to someone else. If it's to me, you're obviously supporting me, because it's exactly what I am saying. If it's not, then I don't see the logic, "obwiously". And yes, it means your Chinese is obviously inferior than  those of people who did "B.S., MBA and Ph.D in Chinese". Just as it's obvious that my English is inferior to yours. And I am "obwiously" not offended by that. So trying to be personal to me is actually hilarious, because well, I am pretty sure what I am good at, and what I am not. And I own up to it. Should I feel bad about admitting my strong and weak points? Maybe I should.

[lips]

Many assumptions are required for that deduction to be valud.

[BanZhiYun]

That's a better topic of discussion than the one going on right now, but it's a different one. You have your point of view, I have mine. Let me try and change a little bit the example. Let's say I can speak Chinese, English and my native tongue to some degree. I can assure you my understanding on how's and why's on Chinese is the strongest so far, even superior to the one of my own native tongue. There are no assumptions required for that to be valid. My major is Chinese linguistics, it's not my native tongue's Linguistics, nor English Language. Maybe my practical Bulgarian is much stronger than practical Chinese, but as to how the Chinese language works, I am more familiar with that than how my own native tongue works. So, in short, my understanding of a certain language (in this case Chinese, it's my major after all) would be stronger than the one of my own language, it would also be stronger of native speakers doing a different major (despite them having a better use of the practical language) and a better understanding than foreigners who can only speak practical Chinese. The same logic can be done for English. People who've done Linguistics on English language are superior than me in English, no questions asked. No matter whether they are foreigners or native speakers. So, should I feel offended by that? No. I feel pretty good when I know what I am not capable of, it helps me realize what I am actually capable of. "Obwiously". Otherwise, why exactly would we have this academic field of study?

[lips]

We're into the meaning of "Chinese is superior". Is somebody who got a degree in English linguistics in English obviously "stronger" in English than someone who doesn't?

[BanZhiYun]

Yes, of course they are. The working language was English.

[BanZhiYun]

Your question is more or less equivalent to: Is someone who got a degree in English Linguistics in a English speaking country superior to someone who got a degree in English linguistics in a non-native English speaking country? First of all, it's obvious the native English speaking country has superior background in teaching and research on English (are there any assumptions there?), second of all the working language is also completely different. I'm interested to hear your point of view.

[lips]

Your question is more or less equivalent to: Is someone who got a degree in English Linguistics in a English speaking country superior to someone who got a degree in English linguistics in a non-native English speaking country?

1. My question did not have the italicized part.

2. If I got a degree in English linguistics in England and Lin Yutang got a degree in English linguistics in France, I would not have considered my English to be stronger than his.

Ta ta.

[eddyf]

I think saying that one person's Chinese or English is "superior" to another person's is really not a great way of putting it. It makes it sound like you're talking about overall proficiency in all aspects of the language. But actually you are only talking about whether they have done certain kinds of academic coursework which is something much more specific. And probably not what most people think of when you make a blanket statement one person is "superior" to another person at Chinese.

Also, perhaps you'll strongly disagree with this, but I think even some people who have never done any formal academic coursework on Chinese can have a better understanding of the language than someone who has. Going to China and doing a Chinese linguistics course in Chinese is one way to get more knowledge about Chinese but it's not the only way. Language is not solely the purview of academic scholars, it's something that's experienced by everyone on Earth every single day. The classroom and the ivory tower do not have a monopoly on dictating and imparting the truth about how a language works.

[BanZhiYun]

I actually do agree with you, @eddyf. But the way the Chinese people put it: 除了感性认识 (what you are basically talking about), 还需要理性认识 (doing an academic study on it) 才能说有比较扎实的把握和全面的了解. First you need a good grasp of the practical language (感性认识), only then you can try to do academic study on it. If you can't speak the language you're researching, well then, the research result wouldn't be exactly valuable.This sounds more like a topic on what Linguistics is as an academic field of study/science, IMO.

@lips As I said, you can have your opinion, I have mine. Scholars and research also have theirs, which proves my point. I can upload a whole academic research in Bulgarian about it, if you'd want me to. So, in short, I am not exactly sure you've ever studied Linguistics. If you have, then your logic is a little off. If you're trying to tell me something, your example isn't exactly appropriate or valuable at all. Point blank is that, if you study XXXX language's Linguistics, it's best to go to the country where this language is the native tongue, and best go to the country's best university, since it's supposed they have the best methods/research on it (maybe that doesn't refer to Western countries? Tbh, I stronlgy believe it does, but it's a different topic). Otherwise, why would people go abroad to a foreign country to study it's language lnguistics, if what you're saying was to be true? Ta.Ta.

P.S. If I had to be frank, when I was referring to 陈德聪, it's exactly what I meant as being superior to him in Chinese, both on research in it's Phonetics, and Chinese as a language itself. I haven't done studies on Chinese Syntax yet, so I am not talking about that here.

[Geiko]

@陈聪 ROFL, you yourself said you downvoted me, it's obvious there are not other people "lurking" around here doing the same, maybe it is you again, but you are keeping it quiet this time. 

 

The downvotes of posts #30 and #31 are mine. And post 28 doesn't have any downvotes because I upvoted it by mistake, my intention was to downvote it too. My apologies, I didn't want to keep it quiet or something.

[BanZhiYun]

@Geiko That's fine by me, I was almost phased by your burst of frankness. You have something more valuable that you have to say?

[Geiko]

I never had a class on Chinese phonetics run by Chinese phoneticists, so no, I don't have anything valuable to add.

[BanZhiYun]

Good to know. We should be grateful that the Internet gives us an opportunity to say whatever we want then, otherwise no one would even try listening to what you had to say. (aka being personal when you can't be anything more than that. I am sorry if you feel irritated by me, that's what happens when you can't say anything else.)

[陳德聰]

You like to throw in little adages like 學而不思則罔, which is cute, but the reason I find them so amusing is that they describe you so well. I am still waiting for your contribution beyond quoting your textbook, otherwise aren't you just *drumroll* 學而不思?? See what I did there? 我送你一句知者不言、言者不知哈

Do you have anything to add to the discussion based on your superior Chinese? I think the reason skylee was incredulous is that we all know the premise is utter bullocks, but let's pretend it's not for a second. The only reason I haven't pulled the "I'm Chinese" card is because we all know being a native speaker doesn't necessarily make you an authority on anything but your own grammaticality judgments. (EDIT: I just realized, I think you are actually talking about course in the North American sense like, one course per semester. Which means you've taken one course of Chinese Phonetics? When I say I haven't studied phonetics as extensively, I mean that I only took like three courses... What a pissing contest this has been.)

You have refused to engage with any of the academic work that I provided, and you said there are contradictions in what I've said, but you have not pointed them out even once. I'm confused about why I would need to write my own academic paper when people have written exactly the same thing already.

Does anyone else have any studies that talk about gender indexing? (Those would be studies that talk about how a certain pronunciation is assigned to a specific gender, where if you use the pronunciation you are making use of some sort of social stratification to either position yourself in the in- or out-group)

[BanZhiYun]

@陈德聪 Apparently your comprehension on what I am saying is very low. You can't think of anything that's beyond "the North American sense". Discussion ended right here. I am a freshman, so of course I've done 1 course on my first year, I can take a lot more before I graduate, so there you go. You've had 3 and you have 0 grasp of Chinese Phonetic system, as proven that you negate people from Gansu can also have this specific pronunciation. Once again, as usual, you are not the one to decide whether what I am citing can describe me, you are a total non-entity to decide that. But you can be delusional, I don't mind, after all, I don't know you in RL and you don't affect my life and studies in any way. Every time you write Chinese, it's obvious you don't know basics, especially on punctuation. So, why should I even waste my time on you describing you things that you won't even understand? Could it be that you believe everyone is as stubborn and pretentious like you? I told  you in a post back there:  you read the article, but you didn't get what it's saying. So me discussing it with you, is pointless. I have contributed besides my textbook (which is very basic, and you can't even understand what my book is saying, lol) but  you have negated it, because, so it's safe to assume you can't grasp any content besides my "textbook" either.

In the meantime, I told you a girl from Gansu was talking like that, as someone on here said. Then you are like "oh no, it's still in the Beijing area because of this one article I've provided!!!!". So what of your article? You have a prove here before your eyes that says there was a girl from Gansu saying /vei/ while speaking 普通话. You should try and put your emphasis on that she is a girl, if  you want to prove your point and not try and negate everything I've said. So, to answer you, no, I am not a drumroll and you need to work on your logical thinking. After all you've done "so many" courses on Linguistics, I'd expect you to have a logical way of thinking and being able to be objective. You are the exact opposite, being subjective to no end, when I could care less about that. Some other people in this thread have been subjective as well, but none of it has had any logic behind it, so 这种逻辑不能成立. Take care. 

[BanZhiYun]

《北京话合口呼零声母母的语音分歧》Let me do this  for you, @陈德聪.
北京话 (you know this) 合口呼 (Do you know know what this is? The definition of it? You won't find it in regular Phonetics, because it's strictly Chinese and works only for 普通话.) 声母母 (do you know this? The definition) 的语音分歧 (you should know this)

It's obvious this article is talking about 北京话. So the point you are trying to make, is pointless (that it's more wildly seen in Beijing and Tianjin). No need to discuss with you furthermore, you're obviously here to argue, despite comprehension being around 0.