A few basic questions from a beginner

[Gadman]

Hi All,

Newly registered, and got a few questions for you, hopefully some kind person will be able to answer some/all of my questions.

Background:-

Having thought about learning Mandarin Chinese for a while, I have finally decided to give it a proper try. I don't consider myself very good at languages, so I think I may struggle, however, I am going to put the initial effort in, and see how far I get before coming to a grinding halt (or not, hopefully). I looked around and decided on Pimsleur, as there seemed to be enough people praising it (although not 100%).

I am only onto the 6th lesson, and have realised that not having any written notes on the course seemed to be making the learning process slightly awkward, so I initially tried to make my own notes (not using PinYin). This proved hard, and didn't help too much. Having searched around I found some transcripts of the Units, these are helping lots, although having to learn PinYin also slows the verbal learning down (although this may reverse as I carry on)

I have found that some of the 'discrepancies' that Pimsleur seemed to ignore, are cleared up in the transcript and notes, which is quite a relief, as I was not sure if it was my hearing or learning technique that was causing me these problems, such as Bu being pronounced either raising or falling. Having read that it depends on the following word falling or not, this actually cleared things up, not sure why Pimsleur couldn't have explained this (but it doesn't).

This raises my first question.

1) If I pronounced Bu always with a falling tone, would this be understood (as this is how it is 'normally' pronounced) or would it be deemed wrong and not understood ? I am obviously trying to learn correct tones, but my brain at the moment is overloaded with just trying to remember words with their normal tones, let alone trying to remember special cases. I would hope that the longer I study for, that rule such as this would eventually become second nature (long way to go, to get to this point though).

To help with pronunciation I have also found a website which allows the user to listen to various words. This is quite helpful too, but, second question.

2) The Chinese word Chi (high tone) to eat, seems to be pronounced in 2 or 3 very different ways

Pimsleur seems to speak it with either a similar sound to the English words "SHIRt/SHERlock" OR "CHURch/CHURn"

website pronounces it like "CHEAt/CHEEse"

Are they all correct, or which one is 'more' correct ? If they are all correct, does this mean that in Chinese the difference between these three different pronounciations are deemed to be trivial, and of no consequence ? To my English brain/perception, these are very different.

3)

Two words that seem closer together in my head are qu (falling), to go, and shi (falling), am. I'm sure I'm going to come across lots of these words that sound incredibly similar to me, but are perceived as entirely different to a native Chinese speaker, Is this correct, or are they perceived as similar to Chinese speakers too ? Interestingly, the difference is easier for me to hear on the website, than it is using the Pimsleur audio, is this common, or just me ? The Pimsleur audio for Qu sounds like it starts with an SH sound not a CH sound, whereas the website sounds very CH. Again the question would be, which one is correct ?

I suppose the fundamental question may be, is my Pimsleur choice correct ?

If I make it through the initial course 1, I do intend to try and find some native speaker to try my verbal skills on. Or maybe even find a local evening course.

And on to last question,

4)

As I am obviously at a very early point in learning, I find it difficult to speak as fast as the audio says it whilst retaining the correct tones. Should I be trying to keep the speed and rhythm correct at the expense of the tones, or keep the tones correct, but slow it all down, and probably get the inflection or emphasis slightly wrong too ?

Ah questions, questions and more questions.

Thanks for taking the time to read this long first post

Kevin.

[skylee]

I am Chinese and have never listened to Pimsleur. From what I know -

1) If I pronounced Bu always with a falling tone, would this be understood (as this is how it is 'normally' pronounced) or would it be deemed wrong and not understood ? - Yes it will be understood.

2) The Chinese word Chi (high tone) to eat, seems to be pronounced in 2 or 3 very different ways - This is not true. It is pronounced in one way only. From your three "observations" I would say it is closest to "CHURch/CHURn". Try listen to this audio files -> "chi1"

3) Two words that seem closer together in my head are qu (falling), to go, and shi (falling), am. I'm sure I'm going to come across lots of these words that sound incredibly similar to me, but are perceived as entirely different to a native Chinese speaker, Is this correct, or are they perceived as similar to Chinese speakers too ? - "qu4" and "shi4" are very very different. If you think that they are similar, either the quality of what you are listening is very poor, or you may need to pay more attention listening. Try listen to these audio files -> "qu4" ; "shi4"

4) Should I be trying to keep the speed and rhythm correct at the expense of the tones, or keep the tones correct, but slow it all down, and probably get the inflection or emphasis slightly wrong too ? - I think you should slow down and get both the tones and the pronunciations right.

[Lu]

I agree with Skylee, especially at point 4. Tones are best learned correctly from the very beginning, it's very hard to go back and correct them later on. Make sure you get it right, don't worry about speaking slowly, you can speed up later on.

I never heard Pimsleur myself, but a lot of people on this forum have used it and I read mostly good things about it, so it seems you've made a good choice. Learning pinyin in addition is even a better choice.

[anticks]

I dont think i could have continued with pimsleur for aslong as i have if i didnt have the transcripts. Sign up to ezmandarin.com and goto downloads > learning materials and download the transcripts for Pimsleur Mandarin. Has them for all 3 volumes.

It makes things alot easier and imo will greatly reduce mistakes. You can see the pinyin used on each character. From what i can see its pretty accurate.

[flameproof]

I do Pimsleur too and now in the midst of III.

Firstly, it is very, very good IMHO. I can listen to it in the bus, subway, or while driving. That is a HUGE advantage. Also, it does not bother you with endless tone drills which try to bore you to death.

Of course the method has the disadvantage that the amound of words is limited. About 500 or so. So it's VERY important to think about the "after".

I am in the lucky position and go to China on a weekly basis. I plan now to hire a 'beifang' teacher to keep on practicing.

I agree too, it lacks a written script. But you can find some resources online, i.e.: http://marcelnijman.demon.nl/mandarin/pimsleur/ (reads better with IE)

I found that link after I started my own list. Feel free to have a look at my list too, it's attached in an Excel file. I know, I know, there are a few errors.....

Mandarin.xls

[atitarev]

New Practical Chinese Reader - 6 volumes is one of the best textbooks for beginners, it teaches to speak, to understand, to read and to write. It is expensive but if you do one volume at a time, it's OK. There was a lot of feedback on this textbook and others in this forum, do a search. You need audio recordings and workbooks. I listened to Pimsleur, it's a poor choice, IMHO but it can teach you a few phrases, without know how they are written, it's not much value.

[flameproof]

>I listened to Pimsleur, it's a poor choice, IMHO but it can teach you a few phrases, without know how they are written, it's not much value.

The Pimsleur course only teaches speaking. It does not teach reading or writing at all. As selfstudy course for talkers only it's a very good choice. I even no have interest in in reading or writing. Perfect for me.

[renegadedog]

Pimsleur isn't all that fantastic, in my opinion. I started off using that, and while I did learn some phrases, none of them were all that useful. It appears to be geared towards people on a business trip looking for a few choice phrases to show off. It doesn't really give you a decent grounding in the language. It's extremely overpriced at 1000 quid for the whole lot too.

A better bet is the Rosetta Stone. As long as you've got regular access to a computer to use it on (and the downside is that you can't listen on the bus or whatever), it' really starts you from the basics and really makes you feel confident in putting everything together. My spoken Chinese improved hugely after I started using it. It also has activities to practice reading.

www.chinesepod.com has lessons which are arguably just as useful as those on Pimsleur, too, completely free.