u(e)i

[freefall]

My chinese book says that the ui sound in pinyin is pronounced with an implicit (e) in between the u and i. I can hear the phenomenon here: http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/rsc/audio/voice_pinyin/GUI4.mp3.

But when I asked my teacher about it, she told me to ignore that rule, becuase people don't speak like that. Is it a regional thing or something?

[ac_haley]

well, perhaps the "e" sound is just a very detailed guidance for you to pronouce "ui" more correctly.

but in fact in daily life native Chinese speakers won't pronouce it that way.

your teacher is right. Just ignore it, the book tells you to add an "e", because in Chinese pinyin, "u" and "i" do not sound exactly the same as English "u" and "i", the "ui" may sounds more "Chinese" if you add a subtle "e" sound in between.

But it is not a problem if you don't.

Help this helps!!

^_^

[Mugi]

You can ignore it - it's a very subtle difference. But contrary to what ac_haley has asserted, native Mandarin speakers whose language is close to standard Putonghua do in fact pronounce it with the "implicit" e. (However, some foreigners end up overdoing it a bit, like the foreign students in the Dragon's Tongue series - no native speaker actually sounds like that.)

Where is your teacher from?

[Taibei]

To address the question that began all this: the -ui in shui, dui, etc. is equal to u + ei. (Lest anyone be confused -- or try to confuse others -- in Pinyin those represent sounds from Mandarin, not English.) So, yes, there's an e, if you want to think of it that way. But it's important to keep in mind that it's not an "e" in isolation; it's e as in ei (the same -ei as in bei, nei, etc.).

Writing -ui for -uei is merely a spelling convention to make Pinyin a little easier to write. This is safe to do because Mandarin has no U + I sound that the UEI sound could be confused with. Even so, the e in u[e]i does appear in one syllable: wei. The u shifts to a w because it comes at the beginning of a syllable, and the ei is preserved. If the e were dropped, it would make people have to have yet another reading for i. So, all in all, this is a good example of the balanced approach Pinyin takes to simplicity vs. unique use of letters/combinations.

So, to the original poster: If you know how to pronounce "wei", you've got the sound you need for shui (shwei), dui (dwei), etc. It's easy -- as long as you don't get fed bad information, which there's far too much of, given how few people (Chinese, not least of all) have a good understanding of how Pinyin is meant to work and be written.

See also the notes below this table of the combinations of Pinyin initials and finals.

[zixingche]

Taibei: thanks for your excellent explanation!

As already mentioned, it's written as -ui but pronounced as -uei and is a spelling convention.

[carlo]

Sorry guys maybe I'm reading this a bit too quickly but I don't think -u(e)i is the same as -u + -ei. The e in u(e)i is a central vowel, like a schwa, the e in bei is more like, a front vowel...

[roddy]

Large discussion on orthographic reform moved to here, keep this one on topic please.

[jukebox]

quoted from 汉语拼音方案

(4) u行的韵母，前面没有声母的时候，写成wu (乌)，wa (娃)，wo (窝)，wai (歪)，wei (威)，wan (弯)，wen (温)，wang (温)，wang (汪)，weng (翁)。

(5) iou，uei，uen 前面加声母的时候，写成iu，ui，un，例如niu (牛)，gui (归)，lun (论)。

So '-ui' is exactly '-uei' and to make it clear, 注音 for -ui/uei/wei is the same ㄨㄟ.

[Jose]

The actual pronunciation may vary according to regions, but wei and -ui are usually analysed phonetically as /wei/, which is close to the English pronunciation of way. However, the vowel glide should not be exaggerated, and Jerry Norman in his book "Chinese" in the Cambridge Language Surveys series makes a very interesting observation, which I think is true, when he claims that the /e/ part is more prominent in third and fourth tones than in the first and second tones.

This is basically like saying that pinyin duǐ and duì sound a bit like "dway", whereas duī and duí are a bit more "dwee"-like. Of course such comparisons with English should be taken with caution, and the effect should not be exaggerated, but I think it is true. (Just ask a native speaker to read 对 and 堆, and compare the difference).

Something similar happens with the /iou/ sound in you and -iu. So, diū and diú are nearly "dyoo", whereas diǔ and diù are more like "dyow".

[Quest]

This is basically like saying that pinyin duǐ and duì sound a bit like "dway", whereas duī and duí are a bit more "dwee"-like. Of course such comparisons with English should be taken with caution, and the effect should not be exaggerated, but I think it is true. (Just ask a native speaker to read 对 and 堆, and compare the difference).

Something similar happens with the /iou/ sound in you and -iu. So, diū and diú are nearly "dyoo", whereas diǔ and diù are more like "dyow".

Do dui2, dui3, diu2, and diu3 exist?

[Jose]

Good point, Quest.

Anyway, other syllables like tui or liu, that can carry the four tones, I think, could be used as examples.