Japanese chengyu

[Ian_Lee]

In Japanese, they also have the equivalence of Chinese chengyu -- yogi jukugo (4 characters Kanji compound).

Some of them are exact adaptation from Chinese chengyu while some of them are modified. But interestingly you can easily guess the meaning from its context. Here is the link:

http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa101400.htm

(I recommend you to guess the meaning first before you read the English explanation.)

[nnt]

Your link is quite interesting and it's just the first page of many more on the same site with :

http://japanese.about.com/blyojijukugo.htm

The cheng yu on the page you've given are 100% chinese, even if some are more used by Japanese than Chinese.

For example, even if 一石二鸟 is less used than 一箭双雕, it's chinese, not japanese.

For example:

外汇注入国有银行“一石二鸟”？ 工行成下一个 ...

外汇注入国有银行“一石二鸟”？ 工行成下一个 http://finance.tom.com

2004年01月07日16时31分 来源:中国新闻网 . ...

finance.tom.com/1001/1004/200417-37052.html

黄易-->大唐双龙传-->第五章一石二鸟

第五章一石二鸟. 黎明时分。 洛阳城皇宫的议政厅，

李世民听罢徐子陵带来的坏消息，神色出奇地平静 ...

www.ai-shu.net/wx/huangyi/datang15/748.htm

As for 前代未闻, even if it's hard to find in a dictionary, it's a "real" Chinese idiom (at least for the Japanese...), although very old:

国学原典·史部·二十四史系列·陈书·卷一

... 武皇虽磐石之宗，远布四海，至于克雪仇耻，宁济艰难，唯

孝元而已，功业茂盛，前代未闻。我与王公俱受重寄，语未

绝 ...

www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/chensu/cs_001.htm

[Ian_Lee]

Nnt:

Not all 四字熟語 (Japanese term for chengyu) are 100% Chinese.

Here is another link with all the 熟語 starting in 一 (one):

http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/diresu21/ichi_.html

This is the 熟語 that I especially like (this one was invented by Japanese):

一・生・懸・命

It means devoting your whole life's effort to work/study.

[nnt]

Ian_Lee:

I just wrote: "The cheng yu on the page you've given ..." , I didn't write "all cheng yu" .

[Quest]

I only recognize 一石二鸟 on Ian_Lee's about.com page as an authentic Chinese Chengyu.

一日千秋 would be 一日千里 in Chinese

危机一发 would be 千钧一发

自业自得 would be 自作自受

前代未闻 would be 前所未闻

Even though groundless, but I have a feeling that the Japanese equivalents were invented by people who had heard of the Chinese chengyus but could not remember them well, so they picked a similar meaning word to substitute.

[nnt]

Even though groundless' date=' but I have a feeling that the Japanese equivalents were invented by people who had heard of the Chinese chengyus but could not remember them well, so they picked a similar meaning word to substitute.[/quote']

I think that on the contrary, the Japanese know too well Chinese Classics.

For 一日千秋:

明史 (Official History of the Ming)

... 大兵至。亨应避右室，其从弟指示之，遂被执，并执其长子

筠。亨应顾筠曰：“勉之，一日千秋，毋自负！”筠曰：“

诺 ...

www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/mingshi/ms_278.htm

前代未闻 can be also be found in official Chinese History:

国学原典·史部·二十四史系列·陈书·卷一

... 武皇虽磐石之宗，远布四海，至于克雪仇耻，宁济艰难，唯

孝元而已，功业茂盛，前代未闻。我与王公俱受重寄，语未

绝 ...

www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/chensu/cs_001.htm

自业自得 is a buddhist chengyu which is even listed as chengyu:

成语典故大全——沈家门第四小学

... 自相残杀, 自相惊忧, 自相矛盾, 自相鱼肉, 自信不

疑. 自行其是, 自崖而反, 自言自语, 自业自得, 自

贻伊戚. ...

www.21xht.com/chengyu/chengyulist.asp?s=z - 71k

As for 危机一发 it is commonly used in wuxia books, for example:

旧雨楼·陈青云《天下第二人》——第二十一章 ...

陈青云《天下第二人》. 第二十一章危机一发. 这确

是一种毒辣之计，如果埋在避日岩的万斤炸药一经爆

炸 ...

www.oldrain.com/wuxia/chenqy/txder/txder21.html

[Ian_Lee]

I just browsed thru some more 四字熟語 at this website:

http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/diresu21/gojyu_on.html

Many more interesting examples:

(1) The 熟語 that you will never expect Japanese to know:

魑・魅・魍・魎

(2) The 熟語 that is based on Tang poem but lacks chengyu equivalence:

月・下・推・敲 (Based on the Tang poem which "A monk knocking the door under the moonlight or A monk pushing the door under the moonlight")

(3) Based on Chinese historical facts (mostly Spring and Autumn period but lacks equivalence in Chengyu):

呉・越・同・舟

孔・丘・盗・跖

晏・子・之・御

韋・編・三・絶

烏・孫・公・主

(3) Based on Buddhist teaching:

阿・鼻・叫・喚

怨・憎・会・苦

硯・池・法・船

森・羅・万・象

(4) The 熟語 that reminds me of Jin Yong's novel:

黯・然・銷・魂

(5) The 熟語 that reminds everybody of Japan's atrocities during WWII:

王・道・楽・土

[Quest]

nnt, the fact that some of those few phrases had been used in 文言 does not necessarily make them accepted 成语s. As someone else pointed out, you will always find what you look for on google.

But I do take your evidence that my feeling was unfounded.

[nnt]

nnt' date=' the fact that some of those few phrases had been used in 文言 does not necessarily make them accepted 成语s. As someone else pointed out, you will always find what you look for on google.

[/quote']

On the pages given on the first Japanese website given by Ian Lee, it was written:

"There are hundreds of yoji-jukugo. Some of them are not even familiar to the Japanese...."

One hundred years ago backwards, chinese Classics and 文言 litterature were the the only books shared by the CJK + V region ("Far East Asia"). The Japanese chengyu were certainly based on those 文言 chengyu, not on common chinese usage.

An old litterary chengyu can be obsolete in China and still be in use in Japan... and return to China as a "new" one, who knows?

BTW the term chengyu should not be restricted to four characters expressions, even if they form the most important part.

If I use google (the arm), it's just to give the references of available on-line books (the Moon ), so that everyone with Internet access could check for himself from the original e-text.

I don't use Google statistics. Other search engines like http://www.tom.com/ can do the same job, but Google is faster.

[skylee]

the fact that some of those few phrases had been used in 文言 does not necessarily make them accepted 成语s.

I agree.

[nnt]

I think "一日千秋" is a variant of "一日三秋" with the same meaning, more than "一日千里" which means of rapidity as in 千里马.

Everybody knows "一日三秋", doesn't he? If three is too much, how much is one thousand?

[Quest]

一日不见，如隔三秋 is more commonly used. 一日三秋 is of course the shorten form.

There is nothing wrong with 一日千秋, 一日万秋，一日亿秋 and so on, but 三 is the accepted number, and I guess because it is more realistic for a person to talk about three years of separation instead of one thousand years...

[nnt]

Let's come now to 危机一发.

I've seen quite a lot of references of Chinese wuxia litterature writers using that expression:

in 武林外史 by 古龙

in 大侠沈胜衣 by 黄鹰

in 紫青双剑录 by 倪匡

in 星宿门 by 雪雁

in 蜀山剑侠传 by 还珠楼主

in 霸海风云 by 云中岳

etc...

So I wonder if it's just a japanese expression exclusively used in HK by wuxia writers, or as wuxia language is a mix of wenyan and baihua, it's too much a "specialist" language (at least not a spoken language) to deserve an entry in a dictionary?

[Ian_Lee]

Nnt:

Let me input my opinion since I started this topic.

I would not agree with Quest that some Japanese scholars did not remember how these chengyu in Chinese exactly were. Since many of the 熟語 like 孔・丘・盗・跖 were only present in Japanese but absent in Chinese, however, they do have traces in Chinese history/legend.

Apparently these 熟語 were intentionally modified or invented by Japanese scholars who were very well-versed in Chinese.

But for 危机一发, I think it is not chengyu in Chinese while 千钧一发 is.

By the way, you mean you prefer the above writers to Jin Yong?

[Quest]

危机一发：一发 here probably means 一触即发

千钧一发：一发 here is a strand of hair

[nnt]

危机一发 means (see first link)

"danger, one hair." It is similar to English expressions "by the skin of one's teeth" or "a close call" etc. This word came from the situation that one is pulling something heavy with one hair, and it is nearly broken.

And it's used in this sense by wuxia books, in such expressions as:

在危机一发之间 or:

正当危机一发时, etc...

like :

... 已经迫上身来。他知道只要敌人化掌拍之势而为削戳，护身阴气便吃不消。在这危机一发之间，不由得他不行幸冒险 ...

mm.beelink.com.cn/book/wuxia/chenqingyun/czl/05.htm

Ironically, 85 years after the May-fourth movement, I think the writers of the famous manifesto which ends by:

危机一发，幸共图之！

would have been accused of using a Japanese chengyu to awaken their people...

[Quest]

"Danger one hair" does not make sense to me.

I still believe in my 危机，一触即发 interpretation.

This word came from the situation that one is pulling something heavy with one hair, and it is nearly broken.

That's 千钧一发。Danger cannot pull one's hair, however 一千钧 is more than enough to pull off one's head... Of course the hair will break before the head is pulled off, so nothing brutal here

The answer lies in whether it is 危機一發 or 危機一髮

A search on google proved inconclusive.

[nnt]

Well, this should give you a clue:

逸海书城--武侠小说--云中岳--横剑狂歌--第三...

...降。 钢镖呼啸着从头顶飞过,显然发镖人不知他俩已经伏下。他骇然扭头,扑来的人已经近身,鬼头“力劈华山”迎头下落,危机一发千钧。 另一个青影,紧跟着使鬼头刀的家伙身后上扑。 拔剑和拔飞刀皆救不了...

www.easysea.com/wuxia/yunzhongyue/hjkg/035.htm

( not from google, but from www.tom.com )

危机一发 is just a shortened form of 危机一发千钧 and a (inverted) variant of 千钧一发.

As the Yijing says: 易者易也 (perhaps a japanese chenyu ) transformation is easy!