Foreign Proper Nouns in Chinese (split from Chinese names)

[confucius]

...but one of my best friends who works in Washington DC has a Chinese name which uses the exact same characters, but in a different order (Wei Zhi Ming)

I also took notice of Joanne's Chinese name and can relate to what she experienced. Many names given to foreign people or places by Chinese people often seem to be far from being the best syllables that sound close to the transliteration. There seems to be a reluctance among Chinese to use certain syllables and characters and I haven't found much justification for it. That's why we're stuck with Jianada for Canada instead of the obvious Ka-na-da and Hawaii comes out sounding like Xiaweiyi instead of Ha-wai-yi. I would love to go toe to toe with the person in China responsible for coming up with the Chinese names for foreign celebrities and places. I know my Chinese name creations would always sound more like the original foreign word and they would just stand there and disagree with me for the sake of argument. "Xiaweiyi!" Give me a break!

split from Chinese name topic in Society forum

[Guest cladding]

...That's why we're stuck with Jianada for Canada instead of the obvious Ka-na-da and Hawaii comes out sounding like Xiaweiyi instead of Ha-wai-yi. I would love to go toe to toe with the person in China responsible for coming up with the Chinese names for foreign celebrities and places. I know my Chinese name creations would always sound more like the original foreign word and they would just stand there and disagree with me for the sake of argument. "Xiaweiyi!" Give me a break!

I think that the reason is that those words were translated by some scholars at the end of 19th or beginning of 20th. At that time, they tended to translate using similar-pronunciation and beautiful/poetic words instead of same-pronunciation but boring words. However, nowaday's translation only considers pronunciation although HongKong/Taiwan still prefre the old ways. Therefore, if Hawaii was just named now, the translation should be Ha-Wai-yi. But Xia-wei-yi becomes convention already.

[TSkillet]

There seems to be a reluctance among Chinese to use certain syllables and characters and I haven't found much justification for it. That's why we're stuck with Jianada for Canada instead of the obvious Ka-na-da and Hawaii comes out sounding like Xiaweiyi instead of Ha-wai-yi.

I think you'll find it's because a lot of places were named by the Chinese living in Hong Kong - a lot of places make a lot more sense in Cantonese. Fer example - Canada is "Ga na dai" in Cantonese - which mirrors the English sounds much better than Jia na da.

[wix]

I wonder why it is even necessary to transliterate foreign names into Chinese in this day and age. Why not simply write them in the roman alphabet? I know this would cause shock and horror to a few Chinese people, but I think it is quite ridiculous that foreign names get butchered into ridiculous Chinese. Reversing the situation how would the Chinese feel if we decided to say River Pond-People instead of Jiang Zemin or simply referred to Beijing as Northern Capital.

I can understand the historical reasons for it being the way it is. In the past the number of foreign names would have been a lot less than now and also many people would have been unfamiliar with the roman alphabet. However, I can see no good reason for continuing this policy.

[roddy]

I'm not sure you could say that most people are familiar with the roman alphabet - most of the people we come into contact with in our jobs in schools, universities and offices, maybe - but most people in China?

Also, pronunciation would be a massive problem - anyone want to listen to a Czech Republic V Saudi Arabia football came where the Chinese commentator is trying to get the pronunciation right?

Although the names given sound ridiculous when you think about what it means, I don't think Chinese people think about what the individual characters mean - they just take the name as a whole to mean whatever it refers to.

I'll end with a riddle I was told recently (and got half right)

Two ants walk out the door one morning and start off down the road to work. Halfway there a pear falls off a tree and lands next to them, almost flattening them. Each ant then called out the name of a country.

Roddy

[TSkillet]

Why not simply write them in the roman alphabet?

I suspect for a large majority of Chinese - especially those listening to the news or something - just don't have the ear to listen to English (or whatever) place names.

And for those of us speaking English - we change other place names into English - as Chinese change place names into Chinese - for example, Rome for Roma, China for Zhongguo, Hong Kong for Heung Gong, Japan for Nihon, Korea for Hanguk, Spain for Espana, and so on.

[wix]

And for those of us speaking English - we change other place names into English - as Chinese change place names into Chinese - for example, Rome for Roma, China for Zhongguo, Hong Kong for Heung Gong, Japan for Nihon, Korea for Hanguk, Spain for Espana, and so on.

TSkillet, I will agree with you to some extent. There is no need for the Chinese to start writing the United States of America instead of Meiguo . Words that are common and have been in use for a long time don't cause confusion. My problem is with writing something like Tangmu Kelusi instead of Tom Cruise and so on.

Also, pronunciation would be a massive problem - anyone want to listen to a Czech Republic V Saudi Arabia football came where the Chinese commentator is trying to get the pronunciation right?

I don't expect that they should necessarily pronounce the words perfectly correctly. Indeed, how many English-speaking people can pronounce Jiang Zemin correctly? The pronunciations will of course be sinofied to some extent, but they would be closer to the real pronunciation and the written form of course would be in 100% agreement.

[roddy]

they would be closer to the real pronunciation and the written form of course would be in 100% agreement.

but if you use the roman alphabet you are going to have to rely on each individual to come up with their own pronunciation - which would be hard enough in Europe.

No takers on the riddle . . .?

[TSkillet]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously it'll be easier for me if the CHinese started using English place names for everything - but then, I know lots of people really still know zero english - and it's a big disadvantage for them.

But on the other hand, I really dislike hearing "Si-ti-vu Fe-lan-ci-si" instead of Steve Francis

[confucius]

It's a pain in the pigu to watch CBA games on Chinese TV and they never say the foreign names of the international players. I still don't know who the heck is "Gai Si" and of course the league doesn't bother putting the actual foreign names on the player's jerseys.

Can't wait to see how they translate LeBron. Probably "Le Bu Lang" (Happy Not Wolf) or something stupid like that.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously it'll be easier for me if the CHinese started using English place names for everything - but then' date=' I know lots of people really still know zero english - and it's a big disadvantage for them.

But on the other hand, I really dislike hearing "Si-ti-vu Fe-lan-ci-si" instead of Steve Francis[/quote']

The Chinese writing system consists of only Hanzi, just like the English writing system consits of only Roman alphabet letters. Why should Chinese speakers incorporate Roman alphabet letters when they're writing? Both Japanese and Korean translate names of foreign places and people into their own writing systems as well (Kana and Hangul respectively).

Also, it would be a pain for non-English speakers to try to read and/or pronounce names written in English. For one thing, English isn't "pronounced the way it's spelled" like Spanish or Hanyu Pinyin. Each letter, vowels specifically, can be prounouced differently. For example, the letter "A" can be pronounced "ah", "eh", "aeh"... etc. Also, there are "silent letters" and different ways of spelling to make the same sounds... etc. Unless the person is fluent in English, he or she would have a hard time pronouncing the names. Also, why should everyone learn English just so they can read names of foriegn places and people.

[holyman]

I wonder why it is even necessary to transliterate foreign names into Chinese in this day and age. Why not simply write them in the roman alphabet?

wad about asking foreigners to simply write down chinese names in chinese characters and make them read like any chinese? equally difficult isn't it?

...but one of my best friends who works in Washington DC has a Chinese name which uses the exact same characters' date=' but in a different order (Wei Zhi Ming)

I also took notice of Joanne's Chinese name and can relate to what she experienced. Many names given to foreign people or places by Chinese people often seem to be far from being the best syllables that sound close to the transliteration. There seems to be a reluctance among Chinese to use certain syllables and characters and I haven't found much justification for it. That's why we're stuck with Jianada for Canada instead of the obvious Ka-na-da and Hawaii comes out sounding like Xiaweiyi instead of Ha-wai-yi. I would love to go toe to toe with the person in China responsible for coming up with the Chinese names for foreign celebrities and places. I know my Chinese name creations would always sound more like the original foreign word and they would just stand there and disagree with me for the sake of argument. "Xiaweiyi!" Give me a break!

[/quote']

thats because after the 1840 opium war, foreigners are allowed to arrive in china thru a few 'trading' ports, and canton is one of them. naturally a lot of foreign names were translated from cantonese then reported to the central govt in beijing. for america, 'ya-mei-li-jian hezhong guo' is united states(or federated states, 'hezhong guo') of 'ah-mui-li-gan' (american). hawaii is 'xia-wei-yi' cos 'xia-wei-yi' is 'ha-wai-yi' in cantonese. on the other hand, 'amoy' is 'xiamen' cos in fujian dialects, xiamen is 'eh meng', foreigners got it a bit twisted and it became 'amoy'.

[wix]

'amoy' is 'xiamen' cos in fujian dialects, xiamen is 'eh meng', foreigners got it a bit twisted and it became 'amoy'.

Actually Amoy comes from Minbei or the Fuzhou dialect. Nasal sounds make it difficult for for foreigners to pronounce it in Minnan.

I agree that many of these names originated from Cantonese. These days there are often different names for places or countries in Taiwan, Hong Kong and China.

Interestingly New York in Minnan sounds remarkably similar to the sound in English. 紐約 pinyin: niu yue and in Minnan it is pronounced niu-iok. I'm sure there are other similar examples, particularly from Cantonese.

[ChouDoufu]

I always find it interesting how the Chinese try to add meaning in the names of of foreigners. Like at one point the Chinese press changed Bin Laden's name so that it had the character for "egg" which doesn't have good connotations... I don't think you can expect foreign countries to call people by their true names, though it would be nice. Every country does the best it can within the confines of their language.

[Guest Anonymous]

Like at one point the Chinese press changed Bin Laden's name so that it had the character for "egg" which doesn't have good connotations...

Where did you see this at? The only translation I've seen in the newspapers is "Bin La Ding"

[holyman]

some place translated that as 'bin la dan(egg)', some as 'bin la deng'.