A question on ending participles.

[Shi Rui'en]

I haven't had much time in class to bring this up, but how do you know when you use the different ending particles "a", "ya", or "wa"? I am fairly sure that it depends on the ending of the word before it, as in whether it is a consonant or vowel sound, but it would be nice to get some clarification and maybe an example or two.

Thanks.

[Guest Cipher]

I haven't had much time in class to bring this up' date=' but how do you know when you use the different ending particles "a", "ya", or "wa"? I am fairly sure that it depends on the ending of the word before it, as in whether it is a consonant or vowel sound, but it would be nice to get some clarification and maybe an example or two.

Thanks. [/quote']

You are generally right using 啊 as ending particle. But when the ending of the word before it has vowel sound of a、e、I、o or ü, you'd better use 呀, for example, 快呀,好多啊. When with vowel sound of u,ao or iao, use 哇, example:要走哇, 多好哇.

This was what I learnt as elementary school student. Guess most people just ignore such rules nowadays.

[Guest Cipher]

Further to my last reply, use 哪(na) after ending word with tail vowel of 'n', like 好险(xian)哪. Of course you can also put it like 好险啊, which I believe is even common, but in such a case, you should pronounce 'na' for '啊' instead of 'a'

[Quest]

I haven't had much time in class to bring this up' date=' but how do you know when you use the different ending particles "a", "ya", or "wa"? I am fairly sure that it depends on the ending of the word before it, as in whether it is a consonant or vowel sound, but it would be nice to get some clarification and maybe an example or two.

Thanks. [/quote']

You are generally right using 啊 as ending particle. But when the ending of the word before it has vowel sound of a、e、I、o or ü, you'd better use 呀, for example, 快呀,好多啊. When with vowel sound of u,ao or iao, use 哇, example:要走哇, 多好哇.

This was what I learnt as elementary school student. Guess most people just ignore such rules nowadays.

Are you sure?

The examples you gave are just the 连读 of ending word + 啊, and those sounds should come out naturally when you say 啊 after a certain ending before it. I don't recall ever thinking about the ending vowel before making that ending sound. Also, I thought 哇 was a 台山话 ending and 哇！is for excitement in mandarin. and 哪 ending? *scratch head*

Also, the tone/mood that 啊 and 呀 express seem to be different to me, though there could be overlaps. What you learned in elementary school could be right, but then I guess it's not that important anyways.

[Guest Cipher]

I haven't had much time in class to bring this up' date=' but how do you know when you use the different ending particles "a", "ya", or "wa"? I am fairly sure that it depends on the ending of the word before it, as in whether it is a consonant or vowel sound, but it would be nice to get some clarification and maybe an example or two.

Thanks. [/quote']

You are generally right using 啊 as ending particle. But when the ending of the word before it has vowel sound of a、e、I、o or ü, you'd better use 呀, for example, 快呀,好多啊. When with vowel sound of u,ao or iao, use 哇, example:要走哇, 多好哇.

This was what I learnt as elementary school student. Guess most people just ignore such rules nowadays.

Are you sure?

The examples you gave are just the 连读 of ending word + 啊, and those sounds should come out naturally when you say 啊 after a certain ending before it. I don't recall ever thinking about the ending vowel before making that ending sound. Also, I thought 哇 was a 台山话 ending and 哇！is for excitement in mandarin. and 哪 ending? *scratch head*

Also, the tone/mood that 啊 and 呀 express seem to be different to me, though there could be overlaps. What you learned in elementary school could be right, but then I guess it's not that important anyways.

That is so called grammar. Agree with the part of that is not so important...

[smithsgj]

I wouldn't call it grammar! It's attempting some sort of phonetic transcription in an entirely non-phonetically based writing system, and really very silly. Why on earth shouldn't 啊 have three or four different readings, if it has exactly the same meaning and very similar pronunciation?

In fact, as Quest points out, the apparent difference in sound belongs to the preceding phoneme. And 啊, 呀, 哇 and 哪 have distinct nuances of meaning. Especially 哪!

Is there any evidence of the use of these distinctions in literature, I wonder? (And if so, so what -- most writing seems to get the various types of 'de' wrong, half the time!)

[Guest Cipher]

I wouldn't call it grammar! It's attempting some sort of phonetic transcription in an entirely non-phonetically based writing system' date=' and really very silly. Why on earth shouldn't 啊 have three or four different readings, if it has exactly the same meaning and very similar pronunciation?

In fact, as Quest points out, the apparent difference in sound belongs to the preceding phoneme. And 啊, 呀, 哇 and 哪 have distinct nuances of meaning. Especially 哪!

Is there any evidence of the use of these distinctions in literature, I wonder? (And if so, so what -- most writing seems to get the various types of 'de' wrong, half the time!)[/quote']

Grammar is abstraction from spoken and written language. From a view of Chinese native speaker, I usually say 真险啊(na) rather than 真险啊(a) simply because it's more smoothly. Also I believe some people would not tend to read like that way, since spoken language is always changing, and grammar can only run after.

[Quest]

How can you say 真险啊(a) without a pause after 险? Everyone says 真险啊(na) naturally, but you don't write 真险哪。

[Guest Cipher]

How can you say 真险啊(a) without a pause after 险? Everyone says 真险啊(na) naturally, but you don't write 真险哪。

See？ We are on the same track. I said you are generally right with 啊(a), but in some cases need to pronounce it as 哪(na), 呀(ya) and 哇(wa). I typed these characters to indicate the pronounciation, not meant to write themselves as endings.

[smithsgj]

> I typed these characters to indicate the pronounciation, not meant to write themselves as endings.

I'm beginning to see. You're not claiming that people write the character 哪 for this purpose. Just that they pronounce a written 啊 as 哪 when it follows a nasal final (an 'n').

But

1. I have read that one is supposed to distinguish 啊 and 呀 in writing. I read it somewhere a long time ago, and disagreed with it then.

2. This suggests that the elementary schools are attempting to teach people how to speak, rather than just how to write. That's wrong anywhere, and in China with all the fangyan it's a completely lost cause isn't it?

3. Do you write (or say) 真無聊 as 真奴聊? Do they teach that in elementary schools too? Probably -- doesn't everything in the Chinese education system have to be learnt slavishly?

[Guest Cipher]

1. I have read that one is supposed to distinguish 啊 and 呀 in writing. I read it somewhere a long time ago' date=' and disagreed with it then.

2. This suggests that the elementary schools are attempting to teach people how to speak, rather than just how to write. That's wrong anywhere, and in China with all the fangyan it's a completely lost cause isn't it?

3. Do you write (or say) 真無聊 as 真奴聊? Do they teach that in elementary schools too? Probably -- doesn't everything in the Chinese education system have to be learnt slavishly?[/quote']

1. In cases you pronounce 啊 as 'ya', you are ok for using 呀 in writing to keep consistent with the pronouciation.

2. I dont think there's , anything wrong to teach students how to pronounce, especially for chinese which has so much polyphones.

3. Never heard of this. 真奴聊 is not Putonghua, and probably not a dialect. A wrong form which I am pretty sure.

[skylee]

Cipher, sometimes a question is not really a question.

[Quest]

奴 - slave - pun

[Guest Cipher]

My english is not so good to get that..., (

[Shi Rui'en]

Thanks, this all helps even if I did have to go over it a couple of times.

So thank you, but I have one more question. Does gender effect the usage of these ending participles at all as I have been told is the case in using "ne". My teachers have said "ne" is more common in speech spoken by females rather than men. Just curious.

[skylee]

Does gender effect the usage of these ending participles at all as I have been told is the case in using "ne". My teachers have said "ne" is more common in speech spoken by females rather than men.

Did you mean 呢? I don't think so. But I am not a language teacher. I think you should observe the "difference" when you take your tests/exams, and then perhaps forget about it.

[smithsgj]

> My teachers have said "ne" is more common in speech spoken by females rather than men. Just curious.

In Taiwan (and for all I know elsewhere, but it may be borrowed from Japanese) there's a particle 'nei' which I guess is also written 呢. It basically means the same thing anyway, and as far as I can work out it's only ever used by women.

But yeah I've heard that 'ne' proper is used more by women. Thing is, studies have been done which show that women (being less assertive, more tentative, it is claimed) ask more questions and make fewer declarative statements than pushy, brash men. Something which is really a statement can be interpreted as a question, in some circumstances, through the use of 'ne'.

But these studies were almost certainly conducted by men; and I'm sure Skylee will agree that they should really be cast into the dustbin of historical linguistics. Certainly it's not something that should be taught, as a real observation about language use!