Aspect markers 过 and 了: What do they actually imply?

[anonymoose]

I know the basic uses, that 过 implies past experience and 了 means a completed action.

According to this webpage, all of the following are possible in Chinese:

1) 我去北京

2) 我去了北京

3) 我去北京了

4) 我去过北京

5) 我去北京过

6) 我去过北京了

7)我去过了北京

To my non-native ears, 5 and 7 don't sound very natural. But anyway, what are the differences in nuances between 2 and 3 (I know that webpage says, but I wonder if anyone has other opinions), and between 5, 6 and 7? Examples of situations in which you might use them would be helpful.

Thanks.

[nipponman]

I would guess that 5) takes on a similar meaning as 3). And that is that it emphasizes the entire action rather than just the verb.

我去过北京 might be an answer to, "have you been to beijing?" While,

我去北京过 might be an answer to , "have you ever travelled before?"

But anyway, what are the differences in nuances between 2 and 3 (I know that webpage says, but I wonder if anyone has other opinions)

2) 我去了北京

3) 我去北京了

To be honest, I don't like the way this website differentiates these two sentences. Actually, I recommend finding more study resources as this is a very basic one. But anyway, the difference b/w these two uses of 了 is not just that of emphasis, they are two grammatically different words.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the used to be pronounced liao3 and just got shortened to le5. But anyway, The first one affects verbs and tense, showing not the past tense but, showing the past perfect tense, i.e a completed action. Simple past tense has the same structure as the present tense (I should really say aspect as chinese has no tense) in chinese. The second particle is not the same grammatical structure, it is more like an information particle, to show that something has changed, that the speaker is incorrect etc. I can't list them all here, please refer to the sticky at the top of Grammar and Vocabulary, for more info. Hope that helped,

nipponman

p.s. feel free to correct me where i'm wrong here.

[anonymoose]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the used to be pronounced liao3 and just got shortened to le5. But anyway, The first one affects verbs and tense, showing not the past tense but, showing the past perfect tense, i.e a completed action. Simple past tense has the same structure as the present tense (I should really say aspect as chinese has no tense) in chinese. The second particle is not the same grammatical structure, it is more like an information particle, to show that something has changed, that the speaker is incorrect etc.

I guess what you're alluding to here is the difference between aspect marker 了 and sentence particle 了.

However, as far as I understand, sometimes 了 can play a dual function, as in it can serve as an aspect marker and sentence particle at the same time. So whilst the 了 in 我去北京了 could be interpreted as a sentence particle (implying a change, etc.), it could also simply be an aspect marker, or both an aspect marker and a sentence particle.

I recommend finding more study resources as this is a very basic one

I know this is a basic resource, but even my advanced books don't go into much detail about the finer nuances of 过 and 了, as in sentences of the sort 5, 6 and 7 in my original post.

[Lugubert]

To me, a humble beginner,

2) 我去了北京

sounds like "When I have gone to (/arived at?) Beijing...", making the listener expect a continuation like "...I'm going to..."

[Jonny Wang]

5 & 7 both sound strange to me. Can't help you out there.

As for 2 & 3, based on my experience (I'm no linguist), #2 would be used to indicate past tense and #3 would be used to indicate a change in state or maybe even an unexpected past tense (which is also sort of a form of past tense in my non-linguist mind). Although I think #3 can also be an acceptable way of expressing just past tense.

Examples:　

1. 上周末我去了北京。 or 上周我去北京了。 both can indicate just the past tense. "I went to Beijng last weekend." Actually in this case, since "last week" makes past tense obvious, you probably shouldn't even use 了. Context makes it unneeded, but you get the idea.

2. A friend calls me on the phone expecting me to be in Tianjin, when I have actually gone to Beijing for the weekend. He asks, 你在哪了? I reply 我去北京了！or 我在北京了！(while I am still in Beijing). This 了 is indicating a change of state from being in Tianjin to being in Beijing. It also is a way of expressing an unexpected response (my friend thinks I am in Tianjin).

3. A friend asks me 周末你去哪了？我去你家但你没在！I respond, 我去北京了！ This 了 helps express an unexpected response (my friend didn't know I went to Beijing). It also expresses past tense.

It could just be ignorance on my part, but I think there's alot of flexibility with the usage of了. Very often it isn't even used for past tense if context of the sentence makes past tense obvious (saying "last weekend" for example). I think some of the usage just depends on habit and preference, given what I hear from Chinese friends' usage. It's one of those words that it took me a long time to have a "feel" about how to use, not one that was easy to apply very strict rules to. I still don't think I'm very good at it, actually.

[semantic nuance]

I'll answer questions by listing possible questions related to each sentence.

1) 我去北京

Q: Where do you plan to go?

2) 我去了北京

Q: Where did you go? I couldn't find you yesterday.

3) 我去北京了

Q: Where did you go? I couldn't find you yesterday.

4) 我去过北京

Q: Which city have you ever been to in China?

5) 我去北京过---not natural,

6) 我去过北京了

Q:Have you ever been to Beijing? A: Yes, I've been to Beijing.

7)我去过了北京--same as 4) and 6)

Hope it helps!

[anonymoose]

Thanks for your replies.

2) 我去了北京

Q: Where did you go? I couldn't find you yesterday.

3) 我去北京了

Q: Where did you go? I couldn't find you yesterday.

So are you saying there is no difference in usage between 我去了北京 and 我去北京了?

[semantic nuance]

Yes, that's what I meant in the contexts I provided.

N.B.: In the following context if people ask: Where did you go exactly? Beijing or Nanjing? , then the answer is 我去了北京. The emphasis is on the place. I guess 我去北京了 is stating the fact that you went to beijing. It emphasizes on the action done.

Hope it helps!

[HashiriKata]

Being one who likes making things more complicated when they already are , I'd like to add another possibility to the above confusing set:

8. 我去了北京了

[anonymoose]

Semantic nuance, so do you disagree with the explanations on this page, namely:

我去了北京.

wŏ qù le bĕi jīng.

This one means "I went to Beijing" and might be used to answer these questions:

● What did you do last Friday?

● It's 3:00 already! You didn't go to Beijing yet, did you?!

Here the 了 (le) is emphasizing the verb. The going itself is the important idea. "I went."

我去北京了.

wŏ qù bĕi jīng le.

This one also means "I went to Beijing," but it might be used to answer these questions:

● What happened last Friday?

● What did you do when you were bored?

In these cases, the idea being emphasized isn't the going, the travel itself, but the whole notion of going to Beijing. "I went to Beijing."

?

[Yuchi]

It's 3:00 already! You didn't go to Beijing yet, did you?!

The "yet" would initiate a response with 已经 (ex. 我已经去了北京 in response to 你还没有去北京吧?), wouldn't it? It doesn't sound natural to respond with "我去了北京" to that question.

You didn't go to beijing yet, did you?!

I went to beijing.

It doesn't sound right/normal in english either (unless there was some underlying subtextual rebellious tone).

[FSO]

Lugubert's instincts are correct;

"我去了北京. " requires a subsequent clause or sentence. If you reply to the question, "Where did you go?" using only this sentence you will leave the listener hanging. The listener will expect some additional, related information.

"我去北京了." can stand on its own.

[semantic nuance]

anonymoose: to me, 我去了北京. and 我去北京了 in the differientiation columns you posted are interchangeable, though I understand what the writer is driving at. To single out 我去北京了, when you ask people 'what did you do/ where did you go?' the answer can be

我去北京了 or 我去北京 (了can be omitted in this case.) The emphasis is to state the fact: something you did.

But when you ask: did you go to beijing or not? the answer can be 我去了or 我去北京了(了 cannot be omitted in this case, because the emphasis is on the action being done or not.)

To be short, 我去了北京. and 我去北京了. can mean the same or differently according to the contexts they're used.

hope it helps:)

[pingpong]

Can I used 了 (le) after any verb?

or would it not make sense to use 'le' after certain verbs. Would I get a blank look?

Thanks

ping