Living in Taiwan: A death sentence for a laowai’s Chinese?

[HashiriKata]

His reply was something to the effect of: "I'm not sure, but when I see your foreign face, it just doesn't seem right; I can't do it."

Beizhenwu, there may be some truth in his reply. I live in the UK but sometimes I talk to some Westerners in my native language by having first to translate my thought (that occurs in English) into my native language. I may have subconsciously switched the language and have to consciously switch it back the other way in order to be polite.

[Mark Baker]

I know that effect too, but since all the input in this conversation was in Chinese to start with, including someone else he was perfectly comfortable speaking Chinese with, I think there was some other factor at play there.

Or do you mean that just seeing my (dumb white guy) face was enough to force his brain into that "must speak English" mode?

Interesting stuff in any case.

[wushijiao]

Interesting story beizhenwu. I’ve been developing a loose theory that people who speak Mandarin as their first language/dialect, compared to people who speak it as their second language/dialect (. Shanghaiese people, people from Guangdong…etc), are generally a bit more willing to speak Mandarin to foreigners.

I really have no evidence to prove this, besides a handful of my own experiences. But it seems to me that when you speak Mandarin with a native speaker of Mandarin, usually northern Chinese people, they generally find the fact that you can speak Chinese to be fun and fascinating. On the other hand, at least in Shnaghai, people seem to be noticeably less enthusiastic about speaking Mandarin to foreigners. And, if non-native Mandarin speakers have good English, they often tend to push hard to use it. So, in other words, the decision to use Mandarin or English may not necessarily be related to the person’s Mandarin or English competency levels, but rather it may be connected to some sort of subconscious emotional response that speaking one of those languages gives the person.

An example of this trend comes from one of my classes I taught last year. The class was full of Shanghaiese “princesses” who tended to be very rich and fashionable. They spoke Shanghaiese (as a native language), Mandarin (due to the PRC’s policies), and English (with IELTS scores around 6.5-7.5, very good). Anyway, I noticed that during the class breaks they almost exclusively spoke in Shanghaiese, with English words dropped in here and there. Mandarin, it seemed, was the least used. I got the feeling that Mandarin was, to some degree, just not as cool as Shanghaiese or English. Of course, they spoke to the non-Shanghaiese students in Mandarin, but this didn’t seem to be the language that they wanted to use in if they didn’t have to use it. This made me postulate a theory that since dialects are generally viewed by mainstream society as less prestigious than Mandarin, and since young bilingual dialect speakers (say, young Shanghaiese) are generally better at English than solely native Mandarin speakers (say, people from Hebei), then for those who are able to speak very competent English, I think speaking English to a foreigner might, in their minds, allow them to leap frog from speaking their slightly stigmatized dialect to what is generally considered the world’s most prestigious language- English. So, perhaps I’m over-analyzing, but for the elites of Shanghai, speaking English to a foreigner serves as status symbol, like an LV bag, to all the un-English speaking masses who are inevitably eavesdropping, and it also is a way to get sweet revenge against that barbarian dialect from the north that they have little interest in anyway.

Similarly, I wonder if people who find Taiwanese people to be less willing to speak Mandarin tend to find that trend is more concentrated among people who are native dialects speakers (even if they speak wonderfully standard Mandarin)? I don’t know.

[Mark Baker]

speaking English to a foreigner serves as status symbol, like an LV bag, to all the un-English speaking masses who are inevitably eavesdropping

Oh yeah, no doubt about that happening--and I've played the b*****d before when I could tell someone was speaking English to me solely for the purpose of showing off (i.e. telling them, in Chinese, so the assembled crowd can hear, that I can't understand their English).

And that theory does have weight: people speaking, or choosing not to speak, a given language in a given setting because of the perceived social ramifications (either elevating or demoting).

Sometimes foreigners (in this case I mean 'foreigners to the USA') will choose to speak English together in public settings because they fear the monolingual Americans around them will not like it. I've seen it with Chinese colleagues, who prefer to switch to English if other dumb white guys walk into the room when we're talking in Chinese.

Better example: At one company, a very large contingent of programmers from India was brought on-site via a consulting company. Out and about in "public" areas at the company (about 250 employees total at this location), they always spoke English together.

I walked into the men's room one day and heard a couple of them speaking their native language together. As soon as they heard me, they switched right to English to continue the conversation. I didn't know these two very well, so I didn't say anything about it, but asked another I was on more familiar terms with about it the next day.

He told me that it's not "official policy" for them to speak only English in front of the Yanks, but that their 'cross-cultural preparation' had 'recommended' it as a good policy, "just in case."

That blew me away. I told him to forget that, that in Seattle you'll hear every language under the sun out and about...but then they all got transferred to the Chicago office, where it might actually make a bit more sense. (A bit, I sez, a bit.)

Fascinating topic, the sort that occasionally makes me regret selling out and leaving the academic life behind.

[ABCinChina]

So, in other words, the decision to use Mandarin or English may not necessarily be related to the person’s Mandarin or English competency levels, but rather it may be connected to some sort of subconscious emotional response that speaking one of those languages gives the person.

Fascinating!

So, perhaps I’m over-analyzing, but for the elites of Shanghai, speaking English to a foreigner serves as status symbol, like an LV bag, to all the un-English speaking masses who are inevitably eavesdropping

I totally agree!

[Meng Lelan]

the Dutch want to accomodate the foreigner (and show off their English skills).

I thought Dutch was a dying or dead language so the Dutch have no choice to speak English?

[Lu]

Whatever gave you that idea?!? Dutch has 20+ mln speakers in Holland and Belgium alone, and the language is very much alive. (Or were you joking?)

Finally I stop and ask him, in English, why he won't speak to me in Chinese, even though I'm using Chinese to speak to him.

His reply was something to the effect of: "I'm not sure, but when I see your foreign face, it just doesn't seem right; I can't do it."

I had something similar happen once. I was having tea with an American friend with really, really good Chinese, and a bunch of his Taiwanese friends. My Chinese is not half bad either, so we were all chatting in Mandarin. Except for one girl, who kept addressing me in English. I asked her: You're not Taiwanese? She said she was in fact Taiwanese. I asked her why then did she keep speaking English to me, and got that same answer: it felt strange to speak Chinese to a white face. She switched to Chinese after that, though.

[L-F-J]

should tell them (in chinese) its strange to speak english to a chinese face.

[Meng Lelan]

should tell them (in chinese) its strange to speak english to a chinese face.

laughing my #$%@# head off

[anticks]

Agree with above. I live in Taipei City (North) and most people i come accross either cant or are too embarressed to speak English to me.. the thing that makes you improve faster is not the fact that you live in the country but its exposure to language. You can be exposed easier in the chinese speaking country but thats all. I could live here and stay in my apartment all day and night... wouldnt make a difference...You need to be motivated.. You could live in the US and watch chinese drama tv, radio study chinese, only order food at chinese places.. make your life chinese only and learn just as much...

[calibre2001]

Maybe learning some Taiwanese will help ease a Taiwanese's reluctance to use chinese with you. After all it's historically not a native native Mandarin place.

[m_k_e]

Dear OP

If the persons you met who were unwilling to speak English with you are anything like the author of this post, then the reason for their behavior is an inferiority complex.

To the speaker, talking in English is not merely a mean of showing off one's language skills. Rather, it is to endorse the Anglo-Saxon culture, which they perceive to be superior to their own.

A language is intrinsically linked to the culture of its speakers. Some people are, due to their background, acutely aware of this. If they meet a native English speaker, they will, of course, immediately see a chance to escape their perceived inferiority, if only for a moment.

You can guess, dear OP, that if you then try to talk to them in their native language, you burst their bubble. I guess there's not much you can do about it, though. Some people are just prone to this kind of thinking (I'm talking from experience).

HTH

m_k_e

[atitarev]

Are you guys still answering a question asked in 2006?

[roddy]

Yes, ABCinChina loved it so much he bumped it up.

Rather, it is to endorse the Anglo-Saxon culture, which they perceive to be superior to their own.

That must be why the German and other descendants of the Saxons speak such good English - they've got the Saxon bit down pat, so they add in the English for the double whammy. Or alternatively, not, and some people just assume foreigners can't speak Chinese, or like to practice and show off their English. It's a mystery.

[anonymoose]

some people just assume foreigners can't speak Chinese, or like to practice and show off their English

I always feel uneasy about complaining about Chinese people wanting to practice their English - after all, its hypocritical given that the foreigner speaking Chinese is also wanting to practice or show off.

However, what I have noticed is that, generally speaking, if you have good Chinese (good pronunciation), you can very quickly break even the most determined English speakers, and get them to switch to Chinese. Of course, there's always the odd one who won't, but I think in a lot of cases, the foreigner's Chinese sounds so laboured that the Chinese person just feels more comfortable conversing in English. After all, if you were in your own country and some Chinese person came up to you speaking pidgin English, wouldn't you also naturally speak in Chinese to facilitate the conversation (assuming you can speak Chinese)?

[chrix]

just about the anecdote about pretending you're German in Taiwan. I remember a German guy going off to Fujen telling us that he would tell people there he was from Estonia since it was well known in Taiwan that Germans speak English well. And the possibility of other Estonians being at Fujen is quite small, Estonia is also not Catholic...

When I was in Taiwan I noticed that many language students would opt to hang out with other language students and their Mandarin would not improve. Of course there's always two sides to this (the old exchange-students-being-ignored-by-the-locals-rant), but it did take some effort. I personally was fortunate in finding some Taiwanese friends who would make it a point in exclusively speaking Mandarin with me, despite having rather good English abilities.

[atitarev]

but I think in a lot of cases, the foreigner's Chinese sounds so laboured that the Chinese person just feels more comfortable conversing in English. After all, if you were in your own country and some Chinese person came up to you speaking pidgin English, wouldn't you also naturally speak in Chinese to facilitate the conversation (assuming you can speak Chinese)?

That's very true. If you insist and continue in a decent Chinese, the Chinese will answer back. The better your Chinese is, the more likely, they will switch to Chinese.

I found it easier to switch to Chinese with those who can't speak a good English, since my Mandarin is not so great, although I can boast a good or very understandable Mandarin accent.