ICLP (Taiwan) v. IUP (Beijing)

[7jason7]

Hi,

Does anyone have any advice for me? I am considering both programs, and would appreciate any input you can provide.

Thanks!

[Jive Turkey]

Where is ICLP? Is this the program at NTNU? The IUP actually used to be hosted by NTNU, but moved over to Qinghua University in the mid-nineties. I haven't attended either IUP's or NTNU's programs, but the word is that the IUP program is the place to go if money is not a concern. The classes there are very small (3 or 4 students/class) and the teaching is supposed to be pretty good. The Mandarin Training Center in Taibei has always been a cut above the rest in Taiwan (which IMO is still not saying much), but friends have told me that quality has been sliding since the IUP moved to Qinghua. If money were no object, I would go to Qinghua. If money were a concern, I would probably go to a place like Beijing Language University. I hear the class sizes at BLU are large, but I am very impressed by their materials. All the programs I know of in Taiwan are still using materials and techniques from the dark ages. I like Taiwan a lot, but there is no drive there anymore to improve CSL teaching techniques and materials.

Just my RMB0.16 worth.

[7jason7]

Thanks for the input. Very helpful.

Any other insights?

[Quest]

NOI DEA WHA TTH ESE THR EEL ETT ERW ORD SAR EAB OUT.

[yonglan]

As I understand it, ICLP is at National Taiwan University (NTU).

National Taiwan Normal University (NTNU) has what used to be called Mandarin Training Center (MTC), but is now being called the Center for Chinese Language and Cultural Studies (CCLC) . I studied there for a year. It was AWFUL. I would have switched but couldn't afford the visa change hassles to get to another school and get a new visa.

The teaching methods are honestly not even methods. Just ask each student the same question. The teachers do the overwhelming majority of the talking even in advanced classes. Many of the texts require retranslation of the English. Worst of all, 3 of my 4 teachers never prepared a lick, and it showed. One of those three also taught at ICLP/NTU. I have 6 years teaching experience myself and it's patently obvious when the teacher hasn't prepared.

Worst of all is the unbelievable arrogance and parochialism of the overwhelmingly majority of faculty and the staff. There are a very small number of kind and dedicated teachers and staff members -- I wish they'd leave 'cause they're giving the place a good name!

I've heard that the programs at 中國文化大學 in Taibei and 中山大學 in Kaohsiung are better -- especially the teachers at 中山大學 are supposed to be very nice. But I have not myself studied at either of those two schools. I've heard schools in China are much more serious about teaching Chinese, but again, I can't say firsthand.

[Guest gogirl]

Is this really true?!? I'm about to apply to this university to stay there a year from this fall. I want to go there because it's supposedly so good... I will also apply to a university at the mainland, for backup, but have (or had) decided to go to Taiwan...

[yonglan]

Yes, it's really true. That's why I wrote it. I'm talking about MTC/CCLC at NTNU.

Yes, their reputation is very good. My guess is that that's because decades ago they were basically the only game in town and for a long time and today they've published a whole lot of textbooks. They have a lot fewer students than they used to. A lot of professors in the US (and I guess many other countries) went there which means it's all they know, or what they know best or have some sort of nostalgia for. I'm told it's also considered Valhalla in Japan, I imagine for the same reason.

Of course, where you should go depends on money and reasons for learning Chinese. There are expensive and supposedly good programs or private lessons.

Taiwan's advantage is living and traditional characters. Taiwan is a free society; I know people who have studied in the mainland even in the past few years and they say there are still hassles. If you're attached to traditional characters, then that's another reason to study in Taiwan.

On the other hand, China is China. They've got 1.3 billion people and all the historical sites. Another thing is that schools in Taiwan typically only have 10 hours of classes a week (since that's what a visa requires, though you could pay for more classes) where as the people I know who've studied in China studied 20 hours a week, but I can't say how universal that is. I'm told that "no one speaks English in China." That is a good thing for you when studying Chinese.

In Taipei I found it hard to speak Chinese with people, even once very fluent and even if the other person's English was virtually nonexistent. Everyone wants to practice their English with you. However, when I lived in Kaohsiung (and spoke Chinese poorly) it was much easier to speak Chinese with people.

I've only lived in Taiwan and I am fond of the place; I just wouldn't go to the school I went to.

[7jason7]

Thanks, Yonglan, for your candid input. I would have to interrupt a career to study abroad so I want to be as careful as possible. The website of NTNU looks respectable so it's great that I won't be fooled now.

ICLP and IUP are supposed to be (by reputation) good programs. It's so hard to know for certain. I was lucky enough to talk with someone now attending ICLP, and she said it was good.

Gogirl, where are you planning to study, and do you have any insight?

[Guest gogirl]

I was wrong.. I read NTU in your subject or something, but the school you described as very bad & awful was NTNU. I was relieved when I found that out.

I'm going to National Taiwan University (NTU) in Taipei this fall to attend "ICLP": intern.chin.lang.progr. I have just been 6 months in Shanghai at Fudan University. I wanted to go back to Shanghai (but not to Fudan!), but NTU is supposedly (xianzai wo xiangxin!) a very good school. Even though I loved Shanghai, I'm looking forward to be in a new environment. And learn a lot!

[Guest gogirl]

This is where you can find info about NTU, ICLP:

http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~iclp/

For 9 months (which is 3 'terms'(?)) I have to pay about 10.000 US$ in school fee. They too have classes of 3-4 students. 4 hours 5 days/week of which one class every day is with only you and the teacher.

[7jason7]

Gogirl, do you also have a link or any helpful information about the program at Fudan? I would be interested in that.

Thank you.

[Guest gogirl]

Fudan University, Shanghai:

http://www.fudan.edu.cn/english/index_en.html

Fudan is known as like the 3rd best univ. in China. But it really didn't feel like that... (To get good teachers you have to go i D-level or higher.) It's more expensive and have larger classes than other universities there (I think..). It's situated far north in the city (and it's a big city!). If I were to go back to Shanghai, I'd attend Shanghai Teachers University (guess you'll find a link by a simple search). That's were our teachers'd send us...

[PaulRoberts]

Jive Turkey really doesn't know what he's talking about.

As mentioned, the International Chinese Langugage Program, aka ICLP is located at National Taiwan University (NTU)

in Taipei, Taiwan, the capital of Taiwan. ICLP is really the old IUP--you can learn more about the details of ICLP/IUP on Wikipedia. Basically IUP in name moved to Beijing, but all the teachers, the methods, the books didn't go anywhere and continued funding was provided by the Taiwan government.

As a former student, it is an excellent, excellent program, but you need to work hard to keep up. There is tons of speaking, writing, reading practice and to be honest, it's not like European languages--you need to know how to read and write in order to really understand the language. I went from not being able to read anything besides Chinese textbooks and not understanding anything on TV (especially news) to understanding news with no problem and being able to discuss political issues with people. I still hope to continue to improve my Chinese, but it's a wonderful feeling to be able to have deep conversations with people in other language.

Check here for a comparison between ICLP and IUP. It's 2008 now, and I think the advantages of a much cleaner environment, a free society, free access to lots of information in Taiwan, very low crime rates over China is only increasing. Also, not all students did so, but should you come to ICLP, you can really take advantage of the best Chinese language university in the world, National Taiwan University (again, the advantages of a free society are more apparent here). I studied both in Shanghai and Taipei and the difference between the societies is huge. I'm not alone in staying in deciding to stay in Taiwan after studying at ICLP; it's a place that's really easy to fall in love with. Just my 2 NT dollars.

[purple_hoodie]

Hi all, as the last post on this topic is already a few years old, I'm just wondering if anyone has any more recent opinions to share about the whole IUP/ICLP debate. I'm currently choosing between the two programs...not as much looking for bang-for-buck as simply being in the right environment to achieve language fluency. I'm a late-20s professional who's been working in Beijing for a few years, so my skills are already at an intermediate-advanced stage, especially when it comes to listening/speaking, and I just feel like I need one more good year to get them to a totally professional level...

[OneEye]

For someone in business, I'd say it's probably six of one, half dozen of the other. Since you're already in Beijing, IUP probably wins out. ICLP is, I believe, slightly better than IUP for academics, but the difference probably isn't huge. One advantage of Taiwan over China for academics is the freedom to openly discuss things like politics without having to self-censor. Another is the wider variety of specialized courses available at each level, so you can focus more on what you want to study. IUP's tuition is a lot more expensive, but the cost of living is probably cheaper on average in Beijing than in Taipei, so it may not matter. The cost of moving to Taipei would offset any money you'd save in tuition. I'd think the fact that you're already in Beijing is more important than any of the differences between the two schools, since they're so similar.

However, I do believe that ICLP is more intensive. They seem to cover the same amount of material in a quarter that IUP covers in a semester, meaning that in an academic year, you'd cover three levels at ICLP as opposed to two at IUP. Their levels seem to be roughly equal, since they use the same books as their core texts, so this may be worth taking into consideration.

And to reiterate, Jive Turkey (above) didn't know what he was talking about. He's getting two different schools mixed up (MTC at NTNU and ICLP at NTU). I wrote a review recently on MTC in this thread. They also have a pretty decent number of Business Chinese classes, so if you want to save a little money (tuition is about US$1000 per quarter as opposed to US$3700 at ICLP and US$8500 per semester at IUP), it might be worth considering.

[purple_hoodie]

Thanks for the advice, OneEye...I'm just curious where you got your sources about academic intensity in ICLP vs IUP? Just word-of-mouth/knowing and speaking with alumni of both? I'd prefer a more intensive program to be honest and at this stage, after living in Beijing for several years, Taiwan could be a very nice change of pace. Still trying to gather opinions/make an informed decision, though...

[OneEye]

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

I didn't claim to have any sources, I just stated that they cover the same textbooks in different amounts of time. This info is easily found on their websites. To me, covering a textbook in 3 months as opposed to 4 is a more intensive pace. Make of that what you will.

For what it's worth, every single ICLP alum I've spoken with has said the exact same thing: "It's totally worth it". They're also very quick to point out how much work it is. One person told me it's pretty much impossible to finish all of the homework they give, and this is by design. It's supposed to be like drinking from a fire hose. Another word that comes up often is "pressure", not just from the teachers (who are apparently very skilled at applying it), but pressure not to look like an idiot in front of the rest of the class because you didn't prepare well enough. Pressure to learn the material really well ahead of time so you don't hold up the other students (there are only 2-4 students per class, so there's no hiding).

Also, every single person I've spoken with here who has had really impressive Chinese has studied at ICLP at one point or another. By "impressive" I mean things like handling Taiwanese PhD programs in Chinese literature, not just the ability to read a newspaper or book. And every foreigner I've met but one who has done any graduate work in Taiwan has been to ICLP. So there's that.

Taiwan is a really, really nice place to live. In fact I'm planning on being here at least another year, if not more (I'm considering doing my MA here, but we'll see), in part because I just really like it here.

[jkhsu]

Here's a video of a typical IUP class. I couldn't find a similar one from ICLP for comparison purposes but I'm guessing they are probably similar.

@purple_hoodie: In general, I'm a believer that a change in environment is beneficial to learning. If you've been living in Beijing, perhaps it might be a good idea to try out ICLP and learn some traditional characters? If your plan is to go back to China anyways, what better opportunity to learn the other character set and get a broader greater China experience than studying at ICLP?

[purple_hoodie]

Thanks for the advice, guys! I've basically set my mind on ICLP - when I visited Taiwan it was indeed very, very nice, and jkhsu, you have a point about learning a bit of a different skill set than what I'd get on the mainland.

[Guest realmayo]

(I love this thread in a nerdy voyeristic way -- if I get a chance to spend another year in Asia I'm all set on spending it in Taiwan, at ICLP. Seems to have an extremely good reputation.)