Taiwanese Mandarin to Chinese Mandarin

[fireball9261]

Btw:

One thing that gets me is that my Taiwanese mother tried to correct when when I told here there was a time limit (期限 - qī xiàn) to get my worker's permit. Is the Taiwanese Mandarin pronunciation of 期, qí or qi?

In my Taiwan published dictionary, both are OK, and qi2 is listed and is the most common usage. However, in recent years, many people use qu1, and I don't know why? I guess it's sort of sounding elegant? Fashionable? mainland Chinese? Close to regional dialects? (My parents and older people from Wu areas do pronounce it as qi1 and not qi2).

[cdn_in_bj]

When I was growing up, Beijing style of Mandarin was a fashion and considered very upper class. Therefore, I sometimes speak more like a Beijing person with very curled tongue and very pronounced Zh, Ch, Sh, R sounds as well as deliberately added "er" endings in certain strategic locations of a sentence.

I guess you've answer my earlier question about whether speaking Beijing-style Mandarin had come into fashion with the later generations. The immigrants from Taiwan that I mentioned in my earlier post (who do not speak with a curled tongue) are all in their 50's-60's.

[82riceballs]

When I was growing up, Beijing style of Mandarin was a fashion and considered very upper class. Therefore, I sometimes speak more like a Beijing person with very curled tongue and very pronounced Zh, Ch, Sh, R sounds as well as deliberately added "er" endings in certain strategic locations of a sentence.

I (with very limited experience) think that "er" only exists in Taiwanese textbooks and Taiwanese jokes. I've never heard any one say "花兒", but I have seen it in poetry from a Taiwanese textbook. It's not natural, and just like fireball said, it's "strategic."

[atitarev]

The description of the Taiwanese Mandarin (台湾国语) and the differences with Putonghua 普通话 have already been discussed and described in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin

I prefer not to exaggerate the differences but knowing them is very beneficial both for speakers of one of the variety and for the learners.

Words 土豆 and 垃圾 are mentioned there as well, so are the retroflex sounds and more.

[ABCinChina]

I was reading back over the body of this post and realized that some people think that 土豆 means peanut in Taiwan. That's funny, because all my family that I know (who are from Taipei) use 花生 for peanut. In fact, I didn't even know what a 土豆 was until now. Also, it's funny how everyone is over-analyzing which regions speak mandarin in what way.

[tanklao]

Mainland Mandarin and Taiwanese Mandarin are a little bit different, but not in an extent that it would be problematic to understand each other

I am a Minnanese. As far as I am experenced, it is not any problem to understand both. I should point out that 吸烟xiyan and 抽烟chouyan are both used commonly in Mainland China. The only difference I encounted is the character 和he. In mainland we pronounce as he1 while in Taiwan they sometimes say han4.

[tanklao]

I was reading back over the body of this post and realized that some people think that 土豆 means peanut in Taiwan. That's funny, because all my family that I know (who are from Taipei) use 花生 for peanut. In fact, I didn't even know what a 土豆 was until now. Also, it's funny how everyone is over-analyzing which regions speak mandarin in what way.

In minnanese 土豆 is 马铃薯（me?ling ji）or 番仔番薯(huan'a huanji), and 花生 is still 花生 with different pronunciation, something like "hue seng".

番薯 means the 薯 came from foreign country. 番 means foreign. 玉米 is 番黍, 辣椒 is 番椒。

so 番仔番薯 means foreigners' foreign薯。

番黍仔尾屿，位于北寮保安宫东北方。 也约位于奎壁山东北方，赤屿北面的一个无人岛，是一沙洲之岛，退潮时全部裸露出来，由奎壁山上俯看形状似玉米，所以叫番黍仔尾屿

[SWWLiu]

Quote:

I use fanqie for tomato primarily in Taiwan and xihongshi in mainland.

Quote:

This depends on location. It seems to me that 西红柿 is used more in the north and 番茄 more in the south.

I believe 番茄 is Cantonese, to be more specific. (In this context, both 西 and 番 refer to their "foreign" origin.) By the way, I was once told, owing to the predominant representation of the Cantonese in the early overseas Chinese population in the U.S., that the word "Ketchup" is derived from the sound of 茄汁 in Cantonese.

[SWWLiu]

The initial question on the tones, I think, is a very perceptive one.

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Quote:

6th January 2008 11:34 AM

fireball9261

Btw:

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Quote:

One thing that gets me is that my Taiwanese mother tried to correct when when I told

here there was a time limit (期限 - qī xiàn) to get my worker's permit. Is the Taiwanese

Mandarin pronunciation of 期, qí or qi?

----

In my Taiwan published dictionary, both are OK, and qi2 is listed and is the most common usage. However, in recent years, many people use qu1, and I don't know why? I guess it's sort of sounding elegant? Fashionable? mainland Chinese? Close to regional dialects? (My parents and older people from Wu areas do pronounce it as qi1 and not qi2).

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question on "time limit (期限 -- qī xiàn)":

In older Chinese dictionaries and those published in Taiwan, 期 is pronounced qí (as in 其) and, alternatively, qī (as in 七 or 欺) as well as jī (as in 基 or 雞)。 In modern mainland Chinese dictionaries, 期 is pronounced qī (as in 七 or 欺); 期 as pronounced jī (as in 基 or 雞) is considered a separate word entry. So, both the poster and his/her parents are right: In Taiwan, the second tone is preferred, though the first tone is also acceptable; in mainland China, only the first tone is used.

I wonder whether this shift from an isolation second tone to an isolation first tone (in the mainland case) can also be considered a case of "isolated tone sandhi". For beginning Mandarin speakers, the "tone sandhi" is often picked up automatically by ear and so they need not be overly concerned about it. This tone shift phenomenon is discussed in, e.g., Yuen Ren CHAO, Mandarin Primer (Harvard Univ. Press, 1948 ) and in Jerry Norman, Chinese (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1988 ), Chap. 6, and elsewhere. For the beginning Mandarin speaker, it suffices to know that some assigned tones in Chinese can shift in context (either as the first character of two or as the middle character of three).

[atitarev]

I'd like to revisit a little the differences between standard Mandarin between mainland China and Taiwan.

Here, they talk about some differences (a paragraph from teh link I gave before):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin#Differences_from_Standard_Mandarin

How true and up-to-date are these differences?

I want to continue watching some Taiwanese TV series (in order to improve my listening skills). I hope, I still get a lot value from this exercise, as this is a slightly different variation of the same standard Mandarin used in China. Do you agree?

I got adjusted to some slight difference in pronunciation. To me the pronunciation difference is not SO BIG. Someone mentioned I remember that retroflex sounds ch, zh, sh are still pronounced but not as strongly as in Beijing. That's my observation too. In other words, "ch" or "sh" are not pronounced exactly as "c" or "s" but considerably softer, so you can still hear the difference but not as strong as in Beijing and to a Westerner's ear they may still sound as "c" or "s".

What's your opinion? Is this true:

sh-, shi becomes s-, si (shuo – suo 說→縮)

See also the discussion page of the Wiki page (Taiwanese Mandarin), which leaves more questions than answers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taiwanese_Mandarin

The last question I couldn't quite understand.

[calibre2001]

I usually think I hear zh,ch pronounced as z,c when they speak with a strong minnan accent or speak minnan more often. IMO actors/actresses in taiwan tv shows tend to speak more standard mandarin, that's why the zh,ch sounds like zh,ch albeit with a softer touch to it. Or maybe thy just speak more mandarin than minnan.

[atitarev]

Thanks, Calibre2001, doesn't the majority speaks Mandarin (albeit with the local accent), not Minnanhua in Taiwan? That's what I hear, anyway, can't confirm.

Mandarin is spoken fluently by almost the entire Taiwanese population, except for some elderly people who were educated under Japanese rule. In the capital Taipei, where there is a high concentration of Mainlanders whose native language is not Taiwanese, Mandarin is used in greater frequency than in southern and rural Taiwan.

[ganyuehan]

I'm no expert, but have lived in Kaohsiung for 10 years. I would say that Taiwanese, 閩南語 or 台語 is widely spoken in the south, especially among some people who consider themselves "本省人". There are people that speak fairly standard Mandarin, but others speak a real Taiwanese Mandarin; the "f" sounds get changed to "h", "zh" turned to "z","越來越" turned to "en lai en" and "ng" word endings sound more like "n". Other people speak both mandarin and Taiwanese at the same time.

[atitarev]

Thanks, Ganyuehan. To rephrase my question: I'd like to know what type of pronunciation is considered standard in Taiwan when people are supposed to speak Mandarin (not Minnan). Perhaps, there is no such thing. Perhaps, it's the one Calibre2001 has described. IMHO, actors or TV anchors are supposed to speak a standard language, even if this variety is not always followed.

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I mentioned before a few things that make me think that standard Mandarin pronunciation in Taiwan is almost as in China.

The famous Taiwanese and Chinese singer Teresa Teng (邓丽君) sang and spoke with an accent, which is closer to Beijing Mandarin, IMHO (if you take away 儿化 and some minor things, like 的, 得 are 地 all pronounced as "di", not "de").

I have recordings of cartoons made in Taiwan, the zh, ch, sh, etc. sound very standard.

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I tend to think that pronouncing standard Mandarin in Taiwan would be considered standard, perhaps need to soften your accent a bit and get rid of 儿化.

[ganyuehan]

I think the standards, believe it or not, are not much different. I think it's a similar standard, but it's just that different people deviate more or less from it(compare 陳水扁's mandarin to 馬英九's). I go to a class here and in the text book there are still 兒's at the end of words(although I'm told I don't have to say them), and my teacher will correct me if I don't curl my tongue, or properly say the "ng" sounds at the end. My main point is that when it's taught, there is a similar standard. Maybe that's still not answering the question.

Do you mean that 的 得 and 地 are always pronounced as "di" in Taiwan? If so, I don't fully agree with that. In some songs it's sung that way, but I hear a lot of people say them as "de".

[Lu]

I think the official standard in Taiwan is very close to the mainland news broadcaster accent, that is, with retroflexes and some (but not too much) erhua. But I think the only people who actually speak like this are Huayu teachers.

Apart from that there is the heavy Taiwanese accent, that says ü for yu and u for wu, doesn't distinguish between -n and -ng, has no retroflexes, can't say the f- (fangfa becomes huanhua), and says su for si (and shi) and sese for xiexie. This is spoken by people who speak Minnan as their mother tongue and never learned decent Mandarin (probably through no fault of their own).

Then there is the Mandarin that most people I hear speak. It's not quite standard, but close enough. It has no erhua at all, and distinguishes between z c s and zhi chi shi, but only a little bit. This is what I usually hear on tv as well. The people calibre2001 describes are in this group.

And then there are a few Mainlanders who carried over their own accent, or standard Mandarin, from the mainland. I'd say Deng Lijun is in this group. But this group is getting smaller.

And, of course, there's everything in between those accents. To hear two different ones next to one another, you could watch the presidential debates between Xie Changting (heavy Minnan accent) and Ma Yingjiu (general Taiwanese Mandarin). (On the other hand, Ma has a heavy Mandarin accent in his Taiwanese, whereas Xie speaks that very standard.)

Edit: Ganyuehan, I never hear anyone say di for de, not even when they sing Deng Lijun's songs. There might be people who say it, but I haven't heard them.

[atitarev]

Thanks for your good answers, Ganyuehan and Lu!

As for "di" pronunciation, I agree. I only meant that in songs, at least some, the "de" in particles is pronounced as "di", which is also a feature of some mainland singers, perhaps as a classical or high-level pronunciation. I should have made myself clearer. No, I don't think this is the standard spoken Mandarin, neither mainland, nor Taiwan.

I agree that there are deviations in Mandarin spoken by non-TV folks, very common not only in Taiwan. Then, IMHO, the Wikipedia articles should not describe the Taiwanese Mandarin as having features, which are not part of the language, which is taught at school or promoted as standard in Taiwan. Although, I should give credit to the authors: the word "basilectal" was used to describe these non-standard features and use "acrolectal" when talking about standard Taiwanese Mandarin:

In basilectal Taiwanese Mandarin, sounds that do not occur in Taiwanese are replaced by sounds from that language.

and

In acrolectal Taiwanese Mandarin:

* the retroflex sounds (ch, zh, sh, r) from Putonghua are softened considerably

* the Beijing retroflex "r" (兒) ending is very rarely heard

* the pinyin feng is pronounced as fong

The article is quite interesting and informative, please contribute! They show some dialectal and foreign words, which penetrated standard Mandarin in Taiwan.

[ganyuehan]

Edit: Ganyuehan, I never hear anyone say di for de, not even when they sing Deng Lijun's songs. There might be people who say it, but I haven't heard them.

So basically we agree, right? My meaning is that they're pronounced as "de".

One time at a KTV many years ago I sang a song called "變曲1990" and I was corrected and told to say a 的as "di". It was a while ago, but it may have been the one in 我的雙眼 by the Chinese people there. Maybe they were mistaken, but that's what happened.

[atitarev]

The common exceptions, are of course, 打的 (from Cantonese), 的确, 目的 (Japanese?) and others where 的 can sound as di with various tones, not neutral.

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They say that in Taiwan many foreign names are written more phonetically than in mainland China and the use of 罗马字 is much higher. So, a Japanese called 鈴木さん (Suzuki-san) will be called "Suzuki桑", not Língmù xiānsheng. Is there any truth in this? From what I know in Chinese words are pronounced as they are written following the readings of the characters, so Japanese names are normally pronounced as they written in Hanzi.

[calibre2001]

Pronouncing 的 as 'di' rather than 'de' apparently has something more to do with making it fit in better with the music. Can't confirm anything on classical pronounciation.