What do you like about China/Chinese culture?

I have been here for about three months now and, to be honest, the experience has left a bad taste in my mouth. I absolutely loathe cultural superiority, but I genuinely cannot help but feel it.

I keep trying to look for the silver lining, but I have trouble. I live in Chongqing and people people here are loud, pushy, and (to me) seem generally rude. They hack and spit everywhere and as noisily as possible, they are incredibly loud when eating, and the vendors constantly follow you around and try to shove stuff into your hands. Compound this onto the fact that pollution is stifling here (I feel like I have had phlegm in my throat since I've been here), people have no concern about throwing trash onto the ground, and the critical thinking and creativity is almost non-existent, and at least I get a extremely negative view of China. I don't even think I need to go into the issues with the government and censorship.

I don't blame the Chinese people for it, like they some how they are a tainted people. In fact, I have met some amazing Chinese people. This view is merely a generalization. I have tried to understand the sources of these issues, and I think that many of the issues just stem from dealing with a huge amount of people. The educational issues are most likely due to the thousands of years that Confucian rote learning has sat on the schools.

I have also guessed that part of it might be Chongqing. A friend I have from Kunming share some of my sentiments (obviously I am not so rude as to make sweeping generalizations with her), and has often said Chongqing people are very rude. Maybe this is just a regional superiority thing though.

I hope no one takes me as a bigot in any way--I am genuinely looking for someone to prove me wrong, which is why I titled it in this way. It may very well be that China is very different outside of Chongqing. I admit I have yet to travel very much. I have also noted that so many people both in this forum and in accounts I have read, have expressed a great love for Chinese culture.

So please, tell me why I'm being an idiot.

I have been here for about three months now and, to be honest, the experience has left a bad taste in my mouth. I absolutely loathe cultural superiority, but I genuinely cannot help but feel it.

First, I want to commend you for being honest - a lot of foreigners experience this in China but aren't willing to admit it because it's not PC. I experienced this for my first 2 yrs in China, but now I absolutely love it, and really can't stand to hear newbies complain abt the Chinese, even though I once did it myself.

They hack and spit everywhere and as noisily as possible

Actually there is a very simple explanation to this - pollution. When you first arrive it doesn't affect you but once that stuff has building up in your lungs over a year or so (or for the Chinese a lifetime) you're prone to respiratory infections and it can rise up in your throat at the most inconvenient times (forgive me for being graphic). Since Chongqing is the most populous city in the world, I imagine the pollution is even more severe than in tiny towns such as Chengdu and Kunming where the pollution is bad enough. I don't spit unless it's absolutely necessary, but I'll do it rather than walk around with sth unpleasant in my mouth. My western upbringing also compels me to do it in a patch of grass or dirt rather than right on the sidewalk where so else can step in it.

the critical thinking and creativity is almost non-existent

While I'll admit that critical thinking is not a strong suit of Chinese education, I've also read enough scholarly articles and seen enough discussion programs on TV to know that there are critical thinkers in China. As to your comment on creativity- this statement is simply wrong. Think about it: My guess is your Chinese is less than fluent, so how would you possibly even understand enough Chinese books, songs, TV, or other media to make a qualified judgment abt the creativity of the Chinese people? IMHO they are very creative.

The educational issues are most likely due to the thousands of years that Confucian rote learning has sat on the schools.

Most Chinese educators and many parents are aware of the problems with the education system, and there is a lot of discussion abt reforms, and even some experimental schools, but because it's still based on preparing for tests, it will probably take many decades to reform.

One thing that you'll start to find out when you learn Chinese is that many of the problems that bother you bother many Chinese as well. Chinese who are more polite also complain abt rude Chinese. Honest Chinese complain abt the Chinese who want to rip everybody off. Once you start to dialogue with more Chinese people you realize that it's not an us vs. them situation, and you'll be less likely to make generalizations.

Be patient with your progress and try to put your generalizations aside and have an open mind, because they can be a filter than keeps you from experiencing what's great abt Chinese culture.

Some of my favorite things abt Chinese off the top of my head ( and maybe some of these are only true for me because I'm a foreigner):

Not so self-conscious abt what others think of them, (exception: child-parent relationship)

More accepting and less judgmental than Americans

Don't need to be comfortable to be happy

Very mutually encouraging- building each other up instead of putting each other down (exception parent->child)

Value intelligence instead of ridiculing it

And this one is silly, but my favorite: Not afraid to sing in public regardless of vocal skill (talk abt being uninhibited!)

Interestingly just before I read this thread, I had been reading the following thread on another china-centric website:

http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/index.php?name=MDForum&file=viewtopic&t=67879

I know the moderators of this site are keen for it not to turn into a "china bashing' forum like other sites, however, I think some interesting points are raised on the above thread.

To a certain extent, I reckon there is an element in truth in saying that the chinese only really truly care about their immediate family. Of course, I think everyone does to some degree..."blood's thicker than water" and all that. However, I think this "gai nian", for whatever reason, is stronger in China than elsewhere.

I once said this to my Chinese teacher in the UK, who was absolutely livid. However, I could tell deep down he knew it was true.

Does this mean living in China is unbearable though?? No of course it doesn't. It just means that if you want to live here you need to adapt slightly and be realistic. Things are not going to change in the short term. If you are someone that gets irrititated by the chinese way of interacting with each other, China really isn't for you. There's no point in living somewhere which makes you miserable.

Well, you are living in an immigrant city also. Find a native cantonese and ask what they think of the northern immigrants that come to guangdong to live and work. They will most likely have the same sentiments as yourself. Now you aren't in the same province as me, but Chongqing is a city built from virtually nothing and everyone who lives there is a "recent" resident so to speak. There is little cultural identity or care amongst the people who come from various backgrounds, to take care of their "home" Mostly they are just there to get out of their countryside and make a few rmb's and are not as civilly educated as other city dwellers "can" be. I actually watched an hour long documentary on only Chongqing once, I wish I could remember the exact name, or I would reccomened it to you to check it out.

I've only been to Chongqing once, but for environment and air quality I thought it was the worst that I'd experienced. However, I love the spicy Sichuan food and you should definitely be enjoying that while you have the chance.

I think what is lacking is the "what will people think about me" attitude. It's good to let your hair down and to act as you like. But there seem to be no boundaries in China.

I find the zero consideration for other people very disturbing. Very typical would be the loud discussion in the hotel corridor just in front of your room at 02:00am. and and and

The easy way for you is is to simply accept that there is only little culture in China. That's how I approach things and I am happy with that.

The easy way for you is is to simply accept that there is only little culture in China.

Having no consideration for others is of the culture too. Or by little culture, you meant Chinese are uncultivated?

I don't blame the Chinese people for it, like they some how they are a tainted people.

I think a lot of it has to do with having living under a dysfunctional political system for so long. I've heard that the people from the former Eastern Bloc were generally considered rude, too. Under this kind of system, it's hard to people to develop trust and respect for those outside ones' familiar circles. The Chinese in Taiwan and HK, and overseas, are much more respectful of one another.

I think a lot of it has to do with having living under a dysfunctional political system for so long. I've heard that the people from the former Eastern Bloc were generally considered rude, too.

Colossus, if you didn't do so already, you might want to have a look at the whole thread, there's some pretty useful suggestions in there!

Having no consideration for others is of the culture too. Or by little culture, you meant Chinese are uncultivated?

I don't really use the term "Chinese" often as in "The Chinese", because it's usually is a wrong generalization. Same when people use "Westerners" or "western food". Usually there are wrongful assumptions based on lack of understanding.

Those Chinese that I know personally have nothing "Colossus" would worry about. I guess many are what "we" would call well mannered. However, you don't really notice well mannered people, and if, the seldom get stuck to your mind. It's a logical exclusion. You notice rude people much more.

Talking about consideration, people will help if you ask them, but by them self they seldom see a "situation". Best example the baby stroller in front of a staircase - a situation were I would just go unrequested and give a hand. That sort of courtesy does not really exist in China.

A funny note about "foreigners". Many lie when it comes to say how wonderful China is. It's OK, nobody expects them not to see the chaos and dirt. I have a personal experience about food. I am often on business in China with foreign visitors. And everybody always praises the wonderful food in China. So did one particular company - a few later a different person from the same company visited. He told me he was warned about the bad food by the previous visitors.

Actually there is a very simple explanation to this - pollution.....I don't spit unless it's absolutely necessary, but I'll do it rather than walk around with sth unpleasant in my mouth. My western upbringing also compels me to do it in a patch of grass or dirt rather than right on the sidewalk where so else can step in it.

I totally agree. I do hate that perpetual feeling of phlegm in the back of my throat and constantly having to clear it. Still, like you, I rarely spit (mainly just clear my throat all the time), and when I do it is out of the way where no one could step on it. Is it really necessary to gargle that stuff? I think flameproof put it well--I feel a general lack of consideration for others and their opinions, as well as their surroundings. I was appalled when I saw the trash just casually thrown on the ground.

While I'll admit that critical thinking is not a strong suit of Chinese education, I've also read enough scholarly articles and seen enough discussion programs on TV to know that there are critical thinkers in China.

I'm going to disagree with you there. I think there is a fair amount of cultural inhibition for critical thinking. While I admit that I haven't read Chinese scholarly articles (you nailed it by the way--my Chinese is 不好) my experience, particularly with the Chinese education system, is that they are an authority driven people. Nearly everything is based on what has been established previously. I have students who are going for Master's degrees in Physics, Microbiology, and Chemistry who don't even know what the scientific method is. All they have been taught is the theory, not the importance of the theory in the framework of science.

For my classes, I assign a short bit of homework every week. The object is for them to practice their writing skills and give me an idea of grammar errors they are commonly making, so the topics vary widely. The topics vary widely from lighthearted ones such as "What is your favorite movie and if you could be a character in it, who would you be?" to heavier topics like "If you only had one day to live, what would you do?" Occasionally, however, it affords me the opportunity to learn a bit about what the students think. Last week I asked them, "What do you think of Chinese education and what would you change if you could?" The answers differed somewhat, but the vast majority had two major things to say--they would put less emphasis on the exam system (which I don't blame them for feeling resentful--the 高考 sounds hellish) and they would create an environment to encourage innovation. As one of my students stated in her opening sentence "With one fifth persons of the world, we never got any Nobel Prizes, so there must be something wrong in our educational system."

The ties easily in with creativity, which a big chunk of of the students also criticized. You cite art and music, but both have been standardized for centuries. Like much of Chinese culture, Confucian attitudes homogenized and standardized a hefty chunk. There have been gradual changes, but on the whole knowledge of the classics were held to be the highest intellectual achievement, not innovation and elaboration.

For a while I chalked things up to the language barrier, as you mentioned. And I don't doubt that my lack of fluency does muddy the waters a good deal. However, the more I talk to students, the more I get this sense. But perhaps you may be right, and my attitude will change with time.

In my opinion, the Chinese people are not creative (not inherently, but culturally), so much as pragmatic. This HAS led to some great innovations--suspensions bridges, paper, compass, etc. But it has not been because innovation has value, but because they are very adept at taking care of business. I would suggest that they embrace science (and they do with open arms), not because of the philosophy and ideals that underpin science, but because of how useful science has shown itself to be.

However, education and cultural attitudes are changing rapidly (compared to the last several hundred years at least). So I can't speculate on where it will be 20 or 30 years from now.

Does this mean living in China is unbearable though??

I didn't want this to sound like I was miserable in China. I can certainly stand it, and on an individual basis I have made some very good casual friends. I don't really get irritated regularly, in fact find that Chinese people are incredibly respectful to foreigners--it is the interactions between each other that upset me occasionally.

I am attempting to put my biases and ethnocentric thinking aside, but granted it is hard. Also, while I don't want to make incorrect generalizations, I don't think it is unfair to make some. I certainly think there are some none-to-kind but accurate generalizations about Americans. And once again, if I do make a generalization, it does not necessarily apply to every Chinese person in the country.

Not so self-conscious abt what others think of them

Yes, although while they don't seem to mind it one on one, they seem to be terrified of public embarrassment (then again, who isn't).

Very mutually encouraging- building each other up instead of putting each other down (exception parent->child)

Value intelligence instead of ridiculing it

I definitely agree with these two.

nd this one is silly, but my favorite: Not afraid to sing in public regardless of vocal skill (talk abt being uninhibited!)

I had forgotten about that one. I do think that is awesome.

See--there is a silver lining after all.

However, you don't really notice well mannered people, and if, the seldom get stuck to your mind. It's a logical exclusion. You notice rude people much more.

This is probably true.

I guess when I came to China I had already decide that I was going to love it, and so I did. In the beginning I was rather overwhelmed, especially by all the people, and the fact that it was so very different. But then I remarked to a well-travelled friend that everything was so different from home, and she replied 'Yeah, isn't it great!', that made me realize that actually, it was, if you just look at it that way.

As to more objectively good things:

- It's safe. Well, you could be ripped off or cheated, but that's about it. If you want to, you can walk home straight through a poor part of town in the middle of the night while drunk, and the worse that would happen is someone yelling 'helloooo!' at you.

- Great food. Not to say there is no bad food, but most food is great.

- It's cheap. From the great food to clothes to music and movies to pretty much everything.

- Some people are really nice and helpful, and will go out of their way to accomodate you and make you feel welcome. While you don't encounter as many rude people back home, you don't often meet such nice people either.

I don't think you are being an idiot....

Except that you are living in a densely populated, polluted city away from the comforts of your home. No one likes spitting etc. China is a developing country. Why? Because the Chinese want to change it too. It's not about culture. It's primarily about economics. Everyone likes comfort, health and wellbeing.

I feel like I have had phlegm in my throat since I've been here

Spit!

vendors constantly follow you around and try to shove stuff into your hands.

Don't worry about it. It doesn't mean anything.

I think that many of the issues just stem from dealing with a huge amount of people.

You're probably right. But maybe you just don't like the place. Let's face it, much of China is ugly, inaccessible, dirty and boring. Those who think they like the place often end up asking themselves why - for years on end.

At the moment I don't like China. I'm afraid of the winter, the pollution, the clatter, the nasty illnesses, the forced drinking. Maybe soon I'll go back and remember what it was I originally liked. These things come to mind....

I like to spit, and pee in public if I have to. I like to talk to folks in the street, and even play with their kids without them thinking I am some kind of weirdo. I like being hassled by vendors. I like to touch my male friends without them thinking I am gay. I like to watch the dancing in the square or park, even when it is bitterly cold. I like the shiny surfaces; the way room attendants do a bad job; that nothing is ever complete; that a little kindness goes a long way; that a little Chinese language goes further; that the Chinese have not become well-trained consumers; that they can't form a line; that men tie their t-shirts in a knot when dancing; that workers on building sites wear western suits covered in brick dust.

OK, so I am the idiot. But, it helps to be an idiot if you want to love China.

PArt 1 of 2

Dear Colussus,

I have two points to make, one is that there is a class consciousness in Chongqing we people will come to a poor person's cause if they realize his situation. This comes from the fact it is built on a hill side and so pole people are the life blood of city helping people carry things as bicycles are not common. I have read about story of mob's coming to the aid of pole people when they were treat badly by upper class people.

One story a black sedan factory boss bumped into a pole guy carrying a bunch of heavy items in the city. The pole guy wasn't hurt by the car much but the bump had a significant dent. The VIP was so angry he jumped out of the car. The pole guy tried to apologize for being run down but the VIP took the pole and beat him unconscious I think.

At this was going on a crowd gathered and started yelling at the VIP. The VIP retreated back to his car but was prevented from leaving by the crowd which massed to over 500 people I think. He stayed there for more than 2 hours before the police were able to ferry him out. The car had more than a small dent by it got out.

The second point I would like to say is that societies are the way they are because of events that have happenned and people and government's actions. In the US we had hootie the Owl who drill into us "Give a hoot, Don't pollute" or Smoky the Bear "Only you can stop forest fires". Before "the Jungle" by Sinclair food processing and cleanliness wasn't as important. My mum who lived in Africa in the early part of her life, whenever she say some one spit (even baseball players) would say "don't spit it spreads TB". This the Craziness of the 70s CHina has only had 20 odd years to work on it's virtues, and it started with entrepreneuralism, which I hope you can agree is a very strong Chinese cultural value. With the Olympics things are starting to change and there are more public messages about proper decorum.

Part 2 of 2

It might help if you hear some of the critisms chinese people have of US upbringing. That US elementary students spend too little time studying and too much time wasted on letting them run around and play on the weekends and evenings when they should be studying to pass the entrance exams. It is a competitive world how can you expect your kids to be successful, if you don't give them every opportuinity to pass the exam. Negligance. British people could be criticized for the amount of teenage alcoholism, French people on obssessive holiday making 2 months a year! Don't you know summer vacation is for cramming.

Public defication (from the attached post) is bad. But Chinese people may feel equally about teenagers smoking pot an illegal drug. Or Kegger parties at Universities in the US, also technically illegal and perhaps not the best examples of civilization.

You have to recognize your ideals and which ones are justified and which ones might not have merit.

We haven't even talked about eating drunken shrimp.

The best advice I can give you is not to judge China with western ideas. Judge China with Chinese thinking. Chinese ideas on environmental protection are starting to change which seems positive for example and I have seen less litter in public places than I used to see. (Nanjing is also becoming richer, which may have an effect)

Good luck ,

Simon:)

To answer your misleading OP title, 巨人, I'd say : Chinese philosophy.

I like to talk to folks in the street, and even play with their kids without them thinking I am some kind of weirdo.

I think this is a big thing too. I'm trying hard, but the language is tough. I think when I get it, even at a basic level, I think I will connect much more with the people.

In my opinion, the Chinese people are not creative (not inherently, but culturally), so much as pragmatic.

Hmmm? How do you figure that? You didn't really explain.

And I would really like to know.